Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

[danlightbulb]

Economy 7 rates are pretty poor though, not much cheaper than single rate and nowhere near the Octopus Go overnight rate that is the benchmark.

I had to put a jumper on last night in the house. Winter is coming.

 

[SDK^]

plus there there are fire risks running unattended appliances during the night

The risk doesn't increase because it's dark
Fit a smoke alarm, have an evac plan then the risk is mitigated. Saying 'I won't do this because....' is just lazy, can't do attitude.

Cars catch fire every day, with people inside, doesn't mean you shouldn't drive one

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I think you are missing the big picture. it isn't about what you can do individually. but there are 10s of 10000s who WILL be able to offset some of their energy use but who on a single rate tariff just don't. even if you can't change your use 1 bit, if those who can do then it will still help smooth the demand curve and that will then help everyone even those who can't.

also medium term many of us will be ditching gas heating. things like heating the water in a water tank (really well insulated) off peak will give enough hot water for the next day but cost much less to heat. Showers I already mentioned and almost everyone (adult) can make sure they shower off peak .
I have discovered the joy of a slow cooker. one cook up can do 10 meals which can go in a freezer. these are great for over night cooking.

Exactly

I still think just about everyone can shift stuff, I wasn't joking when I said bloody mindedness.

Its really just the usual story, I wont suit me so it shouldn't happen, and then they refuse to see clearly.

I honestly think it will be similar to water meters. The most frugal will move first, the majority will move slowly with a small resistance group at the end in effect paying more as they are just left with a group who think like them.

Economy 7 has been a thing for decades. People have been incentivised to shift their use to when demand is low. All my washing, dishwashing and hot water is all time shifted to be done overnight when it’s cheaper.

Right, but with technology we couldn't take it to a more sensible level that reflected the reality of costs. Now we can.

 

[jpaul]

Already been documented in several newspapers but the option to pay people with smart meters to shift use to off-peak is a carrot,
but that doesn't help most needy folks on payment meters, for them, V

Setting out radical plans to tackle the energy crisis, the New Economics Foundation thinktank (NEF) said a system of “free basic energy” could be launched as early as next year
Setting out plans to help the poorest families with soaring bills and to dampen the effects of a looming recession, the NEF said a three-pronged approach was required, including reforms to benefits and one-off payments for all households.
The leftwing thinktank said a limit of 8,000 kilowatt hours per year free of gas and 2,000 kWh of electricity could be funded by the government.
Based on current estimates for prices in April 2023, this would mean just under £4,600 in free energy per household.
On top of this, the NEF said the government’s windfall tax on oil and gas producers could be expanded to raise £22bn, with the proceeds used to pay for a new “cost of living allowance” worth £750 for every household

The next logical step is cannibalism.

consuming other peoples energy


showers - if you commute to work on a bike or do exercise after work shower time is immutable.

 

[bigmike20vt]

I also think in the next decade as more and more get electric cars Vehicle to home and vehicle to grid will surely become a thing. at that point lots won't need a home battery because they will have one sat in their driveway. just 10% of an average electric car battery will cover a huge chunk of house demand.
again it won't be for everyone, if you are at work then your car may not be there, not all will have a capable car, if if those who can do then it helps, but human nature is many of us need an incentive such as cheap energy.

 

[robgmun]

I assume the £400 will be getting scrapped.

I highly doubt they'd do that, it was a promise made months ago and loads of people have budgeted around that, expecting the handout. If the rug was pulled it would look horrendous for the Tories and allow Labour to jump on them for being the 'nasty' party again. If she was smart she'd keep it.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Already been documented in several newspapers but the option to pay people with smart meters to shift use to off-peak is a carrot,
but that doesn't help most needy folks on payment meters, for them, V





consuming other peoples energy


showers - if you commute to work on a bike or do exercise after work shower time is immutable.

FGS. so we do nothing theb........ great plan. Let's just demand handouts but refuse to encourage anyone to change at all. good plan, that is going to work out well. (and yes I agree government should help out those most in need)

but your argument is classic daily mail like thinking. find examples where a system has failed or won't work and just poke holes trying to undermine it.

it isn't just about 1 person . if 5% of people can change absolutely nothing (which I do dispute) but that still leaves 95% who can.

bottom line I am sorry if your life style means you are totally inflexible and you refuse or are unable to use any off peak power. but it does not mean that those who can push their use to cleaner , cheaper power should not be rewarded for it.

 

[delta0]

If people can’t change some things to be done during off peak times then the best option is to install a battery and use that to charge on off peak energy to be used later during peak times.

 

[HungryHippos]

I highly doubt they'd do that, it was a promise made months ago and loads of people have budgeted around that, expecting the handout. If the rug was pulled it would look horrendous for the Tories and allow Labour to jump on them for being the 'nasty' party again. If she was smart she'd keep it.

I think it's why they're setting the cap at £2.5K average price, because then they can still do the £400 handout, but it's accounted for within the £500 increase.

 

[Doobedoo]

If people can’t change some things to be done during off peak times then the best option is to install a battery and use that to charge on off peak energy to be used later during peak times.

That is the best solution anyway. It would mitigate peak demand completely. Problem is people are more concerned about ROI’s and money than anything else.

 

[danlightbulb]

I also think in the next decade as more and more get electric cars Vehicle to home and vehicle to grid will surely become a thing. at that point lots won't need a home battery because they will have one sat in their driveway. just 10% of an average electric car battery will cover a huge chunk of house demand.
again it won't be for everyone, if you are at work then your car may not be there, not all will have a capable car, if if those who can do then it helps, but human nature is many of us need an incentive such as cheap energy.

I hope this does happen, it would be a very strong incentive. People are paying upwards of £5k to install a few kW of home battery when an EV has possibly a 70 kW one sitting there.

But to be beneficial it needs cheap overnight rates to recharge it (or solar). If everyone is charging overnight, will that be the new peak?

 

[HungryHippos]

One of the new EV legislations is a built in delayed charger I think, so they don't all kick off at the exact same moment.

It's possible to schedule/randomise enough to prevent a huge peak all at once.

 

[bigmike20vt]

I hope this does happen, it would be a very strong incentive. People are paying upwards of £5k to install a few kW of home battery when an EV has possibly a 70 kW one sitting there.

But to be beneficial it needs cheap overnight rates to recharge it (or solar). If everyone is charging overnight, will that be the new peak?

i have not done the maths myself so am relying on info from Fully charged which is biased against fossil fuels (as am i) but they claim no, it will be fine...... even with cars charging over night, apparently the peak demand will still be at that point where offices are still close to full swing but parents are cooking tea and making brews once they get home..... apparently the switch to LED lighting as well as more efficient TVs and white goods means that we are already using less power that we did years ago, so there is plenty of slack to charge electric cars.

also people wont get milliosn of new electric cars over night, the change will happen gradually allowing the grid to adapt. equipment powering the grid needs to be replaced naturally all the time, and as such it can be replaced with better gear when the time comes without having to radically rip out working but not powerful enough gear so it should be a smooth transition

also already systems are going inplace to add a random 15 minute element into your charging schedule... so even if the whole country started charging their cars at 10pm, which would be quite an immediate surge, actually it would not happen then, the charging would gradually start up over 15 mins.

think of the energy surge at half time during a world cup final where people put the kettle on................ the grid can cope with that ok.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

One of the new EV legislations is a built in delayed charger I think, so they don't all kick off at the exact same moment.

It's possible to schedule/randomise enough to prevent a huge peak all at once.

Yes Octopus (as ever) trialling one. Only compatible chargers and cars allowed on it. Basically you set certain parameters and they ensure its topped up, but by using the cheapest rates across that period.
So its a bit like a hybrid of Go and Agile.

I hope this does happen, it would be a very strong incentive. People are paying upwards of £5k to install a few kW of home battery when an EV has possibly a 70 kW one sitting there.

But to be beneficial it needs cheap overnight rates to recharge it (or solar). If everyone is charging overnight, will that be the new peak?

It will be variably cheap like Agile. So there will be predictably low cost times, but if high generation from renewables is online the price could be cheap all day.
Having smarter charging, items that and aware of the price will be required.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

We certainly are using less energy.
This shows on the dashboard halfway down the energy usage https://grid.iamkate.com/

Compare the years on

All time (yearly averages)​

 

[SPG]

Yes Octopus (as ever) trialling one. Only compatible chargers and cars allowed on it. Basically you set certain parameters and they ensure its topped up, but by using the cheapest rates across that period.
So its a bit like a hybrid of Go and Agile.



It will be variably cheap like Agile. So there will be predictably low cost times, but if high generation from renewables is online the price could be cheap all day.
Having smarter charging, items that and aware of the price will be required.

Yes, amongst a few others these came into force In July for new chargers onto market. However they can all be overridden by the user. At the end of the day the charger is a dumb bit of kit and is controlled by the car.

 

[HungryHippos]

Sure but how many people will mess about with it I wonder?

Most people just care that it charges overnight or similar, how it does it shouldn't matter too much I guess.

 

[mattyprice4004]

ummm... I didn't say higher use wore it out more... I'm also referring to both gas and electric, not just electric.

Trying to dismiss my point by twisting what I say into something I didn't say in order to make it/me look silly is just.... Well, silly

Your post implied that higher use should have a higher standing charge; the reply rightly pointed out that the infrastructure cost is the same if you use a little or a lot, so your idea didn’t make much sense.

 

[Shoza]

Just call them and refuse the rise, I don't think they can set a new DD level without your consent. I think the energy companies sees silence as consent so you have to actively call up and refuse.

OVO have not backed down with me. Wouldn’t accept it on the phone but when I emailed the complaint through they replied back pretty quickly to confirm it was ok to remain where it is. They gave me a rough estimate of my predicted usage (shame they don’t break it down properly like other providers) and asked me to keep an eye on it - of course I will!

My problem was them treating me like I don’t know how to handle my bills and usage and despite explaining my usage last year was excessive due to baby they assumed it would now always be like that. I checked back and my gas usage was 3 times higher than pre-baby.

I’m predicted to stay in credit until November and then I’ll see about top up payments / upping my DD a bit.

 

[delta0]

Norway is considering a price cap on its gas. That should help keep the prices down.