England Euro 2012 post mortem thread.

[Tom84]

The biggest psychological problem this England side is simply the inability to play as a team, the only thing this current side can do together is defend, when it comes to doing anything offensively though they look like players who have never even met before.

My memory may be playing tricks on me but my recollection of England back in South Korea in 2002 and Portugal in 2004 was at the very least they were a team capable of getting a result against the better teams and not look totally inferior/lucky whilst doing it. Fair enough they may never have played the quality of football you see from the likes of the Germans now but they looked capable of being a team. It's been almost 10 now since I've seen that from England.

 

[cm1179]

even with that team, it was always the ''gerrard and lampard'' cancel each other out, when results didn't go our way. it'll never change, no matter what team is put out. we'll always find fault somewhere as our expectations are too high, though these are now more grounded year on year .... until we get a new manager (we've had what, 5 in a decade?) and the optimisim and spirit creeps in.

the biggest problem is teams don't fear us and want/believe they can beat us, even if our team (on paper) should beat them. ukraine and sweden were both full of belief they could beat us, even though, realistically, we should breeze a result against both.

 

[Curio]

I think English football has quite a few issues. If it was a person, it would need some strong medication and a few years of therapy to get it sorted. There certainly isn't a quick fix. People say we need to do what Germany did (and I agree), but our problems are deeper rooted and have been going on longer.

I'll just say this: The last player wearing the 3 Lions I can think of who gave me a real buzz whenever he got the ball was Paul Gascoigne. A young Michael Owen had it for a short time. Becks had it whenever he lined up a free kick. That's a pretty poor number considering I first watched England at Mexico '86! Do any of the current crop of kids hold that potential? Not even close. Worryingly, they barely seem to be PL quality to me

I think it could be a rough few years ahead.

 

[Danthus]

Well he is our best player and "world class" he did nothing in 2 games fit or unfit.

Inb4 Hodgson told him how to play.

It was pretty clear to people who watched the games that asking one of your forwards to man mark their playmaker isn't is wise move.

 

[happy_2008]

Hopefully the introduction of youth would do the team well. Looking forward to Cleverly and Wilshere partner

 

[Tom84]

It could actually end up being a good thing so many of England's future missed being involved in this tournament, dont want them developing the same mental problem the current group have

 

[lemonkettaz]

England have missed Owen tbh, yes we have Rooney but for a fair few year we haven't had a striker that almost certainly scored.

Our midfield currently is shocking. Thats basically it.

 

[dannyjo22]

Well I guess now we will see how big roys balls are and if he makes changes or toes the FA line and keeps the big names in rather than building for the future.

Mind you change will probably be seen as playing Lampard and Barry as they didn't feature in the euros

 

[mmj_uk]

England have missed Owen tbh, yes we have Rooney but for a fair few year we haven't had a striker that almost certainly scored.

Defoe would have probably been a great replacement but the guy never gets given a chance.

Rooney has never done anything for England since he started trying to be clever and drop into midfield to pick up the ball, it might work for Man UTD with their wealth of attacking players but whenever he plays for England we tend to look disjointed up front.

 

[Tom84]

Bent > Defoe tbh

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Rooney has played well for England previously, his break through tournament is a perfect example.

At last you have seen the main point in my original post , was to say Rooney has had a good tournie for England.

My point abut Rooney getting sent was only brought up as he was playing well in that competition as well

I'll leave it there with you tummy as you are a football purist

 

[tbz_ck]

The elephant in the room is that England just aren't world class.

Very few people seem to want to admit it, but we're just not as good as we like to think we are. Italy played us off the pitch tonight and ought to have won at least 2-0, it would've been a travesty for us to have gone through on penalties after that display, I don't care how patriotic you are.

We keep throwing managers at it, every time it's built up as a fresh start, and every time the same cracks appear in the same places.

The sooner we just accept we're an average team the easier it will be for everyone to appreciate England for the team it is rather than the one the tabloids etc bill it as.

Well said.

For me there are several fundamentals that England have got wrong over the years.

1) Culture - Coaches from the ground up have focussed on power/aggression rather than teaching youngsters how to PASS AND KEEP THE BALL

Italy gave England a master class in possession football. Pirlo hit something like 140 ish passes of which around 125 were completed....!

2) Opportunity - There are not enough English players (or managers) active in the top leagues in world football.

We need more English players/managers in the Premiership, La Liga, Serie A etc to get a better appreciation for how the top international teams play (passing and keeping the ball ) and to mix with those that they can learn from.

3) Comparison - The Premier league is not equal to international football.

What works in the PL clearly does not work in International tournaments. I don't care how "good" the premier league is reported to be, it clearly seems to work because of the mix of foreign/native players. Since we don't have those foreign players available to the national side it is futile to think that what those players do week in week out in their club side can yield success at international level. Stop the comparisons and learn how to PASS WELL AND KEEP THE BALL!

4) Rebirth - The FA et al need to stop trying to fix a broken system and put their resources into getting the best coaches in at youngster levels. The FA are probably one of the most affluent organisations in world football. They need coaches that teach kids to PASS WELL AND KEEP THE BALL

One more thing. The media needs to get a grip. How they can think that England are a footballing world power when they have won 1 thing in the last 46 years is beyond me. Stop the hype, take the pressure off and see that there needs to be a radical rethink into English football.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Well said.

For me there are several fundamentals that England have got wrong over the years.

1) Culture - Coaches from the ground up have focussed on power/aggression rather than teaching youngsters how to PASS AND KEEP THE BALL

Italy gave England a master class in possession football. Pirlo hit something like 140 ish passes of which around 125 were completed....!

2) Opportunity - There are not enough English players (or managers) active in the top leagues in world football.

We need more English players/managers in the Premiership, La Liga, Serie A etc to get a better appreciation for how the top international teams play (passing and keeping the ball ) and to mix with those that they can learn from.

3) Comparison - The Premier league is not equal to international football.

What works in the PL clearly does not work in International tournaments. I don't care how "good" the premier league is reported to be, it clearly seems to work because of the mix of foreign/native players. Since we don't have those foreign players available to the national side it is futile to think that what those players do week in week out in their club side can yield success at international level. Stop the comparisons and learn how to PASS WELL AND KEEP THE BALL!

4) Rebirth - The FA et al need to stop trying to fix a broken system and put their resources into getting the best coaches in at youngster levels. The FA are probably one of the most affluent organisations in world football. They need coaches that teach kids to PASS WELL AND KEEP THE BALL

One more thing. The media needs to get a grip. How they can think that England are a footballing world power when they have won 1 thing in the last 46 years is beyond me. Stop the hype, take the pressure off and see that there needs to be a radical rethink into English football.

Arsenals acadamy teaches the players to pass the ball and keep it well. the likes of Wilshere, Gibbs and walcott can do this. maybe not as good as barca but better then the english team thats for sure.

The English side needs more Arsenal players really but for that to happen, Wenger has to heavily invest in local talent instead of foreign talent. his trying but at the moment most of our local talent doesnt cut it yet.

Another thing is the english tactics. even if u have a team filled with arsenal players, if the manager tells them to play fast pace football then thats what u will get, the players will be always in a rush to get rid of the ball.

 

[jakeke]

Lots of coaches teach players to keep the ball. It's not an overnight thing ..

 

[mp260767]

Anyone who says Rooney isn't a better player today than he was back in 2004 quite simply has no grasp of realty.

part the problem with rooney is that he gets narked with lack of service loses his focus and goes hunting for the ball, it happens for united as well, just not as often as they tend to be able to get the ball to him more often.

he's wasted anywhere else other than the final 3rd of the field, as its useing energy best kept for around the area, i just wish he could find the composure to move along the back line and wait for service/support.

more than anything else he seems to have lost the desire to run at players as much as he used to, whether thats down to him developing his all round game i don't know, but it wastes a lot of his effectiveness.

 

[wildman]

Do you think Gerrard has the legs to keep up with Pirlo?

No knocking Gerrard at all, an honest question - I think he would have struggled , I think it would have worked better swapping Jones and Gerrard (although you have a point that Jones isnt yet /at all near the quality of Gerrard that far up the pitch) and give the young legs of Jones the task of chasing Pirlo all over the pitch

Pirlo's legs are getting on a bit, but he was struggling a lot less than majority of the England team throughout the game

Prilo is 33, yet he managed to control the entire game without really even breaking a sweat. If the younger England Midfielders can't track him then I'd say they have got a general fitness problem or are just tactically inept.

Pirlo's distribution of the ball was sublime. I have yet to see an England midfielder who has the same vision and perception of the game as he did on Sunday. He probably could have staye out there all night knocking the ball around to his team mates and then gone down the boozer at the end of it for a cheeky little peroni just like you do after a sunday afternoon kick about with your mates.

People go on about 4-4-2 no cutting it, and I;d agree with that, but the manager can only field a formation as best he can with the players available to him. I don't think the current set of players could play any other formation well.

At club level in the PL you see different line ups for the top clubs where 4-4-2 isn't as common, but look at the players they do that with, the top flight clubs aren't eexactly fielding a full 1 shirts of English players. Then look at teasm like spain where the top flight clubs have majority of Spanish players in their first squad and then look how they play internationals. Their national suqad plays almost carbon copy of what the top clubs in la liga play. So England are at a disadvantage straight away.

Other national squads get to play the same football style and formations they normally play day in day out in their domestic leagues, and then England due to what ever reasons have to play a completely different style to what their first team play day in day out at club level.

In 1966 when they won the England squad played almost identical tactics and style to what they used to play every day at league level so it wasn't like they were being asked to re-learn how to play football again.

Untill this discrepancy can be ironed out ENgland will alwats fail. The biggst problem is the fact the the best PL players and squads field almost exclusively non English stars.

 

[Shamikebab]

Prilo is 33, yet he managed to control the entire game without really even breaking a sweat. If the younger England Midfielders can't track him then I'd say they have got a general fitness problem or are just tactically inept.

I think you underestimate how much more energy it requires to chase a game

 

[wildman]

I think you underestimate how much more energy it requires to chase a game

If England's Midfield actually had decent ball distribution skills and vision they wouldn't have to do so much chasing. The fact they can't hold on to the ball for more than 10 seconds is where they fail.

Also when they do lose the ball they should be fit enough to close play makers like Pirlo down. parking the bus and letting him come on to you or giving him space to do what he does best is always going to end up in disaster.

 

[FrankJH]

Prilo is 33, yet he managed to control the entire game without really even breaking a sweat. If the younger England Midfielders can't track him then I'd say they have got a general fitness problem or are just tactically inept.

Pirlo's distribution of the ball was sublime. I have yet to see an England midfielder who has the same vision and perception of the game as he did on Sunday. He probably could have staye out there all night knocking the ball around to his team mates and then gone down the boozer at the end of it for a cheeky little peroni just like you do after a sunday afternoon kick about with your mates.

At club level in the PL you see different line ups for the top clubs where 4-4-2 isn't as common, but look at the players they do that with, the top flight clubs aren't eexactly fielding a full 1 shirts of English players. Then look at teasm like spain where the top flight clubs have majority of Spanish players in their first squad and then look how they play internationals. Their national suqad plays almost carbon copy of what the top clubs in la liga play. So England are at a disadvantage straight away.

Other national squads get to play the same football style and formations they normally play day in day out in their domestic leagues, and then England due to what ever reasons have to play a completely different style to what their first team play day in day out at club level.

In 1966 when they won the England squad played almost identical tactics and style to what they used to play every day at league level so it wasn't like they were being asked to re-learn how to play football again.

Untill this discrepancy can be ironed out ENgland will alwats fail. The biggst problem is the fact the the best PL players and squads field almost exclusively non English stars.

Gerrard is 32 this year is he not ? He isnt that much younger than Pirlo that you seem to want to imply , and with his recent spate of injuries over the last couple of years (although I cant comment on any Pirlo has had over the same period) , its not surprising SG isnt as mobile as before - which I think he even hinted at in a Gabby Logan interview during the euros.

Just as SHam said, as much from the other side - if he had been closed down more by even an english youngster all match, he would have been feeling it before ET (after all he was subbed during all group games, I think this was stated in commentary on the night anyway). England gave him the space so he was relaxed and spraying the ball around - good for him, but the opposition made it easy for him.

Most of the Spanish team were Barca, another 3 or so are RM (1st XI) I think thats what the commentary suggested. I know Alba (who looks terrific) is supposed to move to Barca this summer, but currently at a smaller team. One way or the other major English players are from City, Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool to start with (with 4 different team coaches/managers etc , tactics .....) without allowing for the likes of Parker, and with a bit of fortune you could add Wilshire from Arsenal into that

You either want the EPL to be competitive (and therefore in this way England are always going to suffer to some point) or you have just two competitive EPL teams, where majority of the English team come from

Im not saying its impossible to get players working together from different teams, but its one **** of a lot easier the fewer different teams there are to start with.

One thing is for certain, England definitely need a few decent midfielders who are able to control the ball really closely /precisely with a decent pass - we lost possession far too easily too many times (not just Parker and Gerrard, everyone did, but I would suggest they probably saw the ball more than majority of other English players).

 

[Tom84]

In hindsight it seems crazy no one other than Juve took a punt on Pirlo when he left Milan