English League Football [26th Feb - 2nd Mar 2010] **spoilers**

[jakeke]

Does that happen at every football game then ? Been a while since I went to one..

Aye, every prem game I think, internationals too I think so they can sing the national anthem

 

[Tummy]

Championship and lower leagues as well, I mean I know it's hard to remember there are other leagues in England

 

[jakeke]

¬_¬

 

[cheets64]

Would you let it drop if you were a manager who just had one of their most promising players suffer a horrible leg break like Ramsey did.

But what is done is done, he was sent off and punished for it, it was not a nasty tackle and nothing more needs to be made of it.

 

[Greenlizard0]

I'm not going to say any more on Ramsey's incident as I already have much earlier on in the thread. It's the same arguements from Arsenal and non Arsenal fans going round again and again..

The worst thing about the example below is that Shawcross it seems is given the 'English player immunity' that our press etc. afford. Now that he's got a call up...

Remember a few weeks ago Gallas' tackle on the Bolton player? The player was ok afterwards, but my word how (and for how long) the Frenchman was vilified!

Somebody mentioned Drogba recently. There's somebody who over the years hasn't crossed this aforementioned line, yet remains very big and physical. Nothing wrong whatsoever with that, and I really don't see the Ivorian breaking bones anytime soon.

You're turning it into a witchunt though, whilst spouting incorrect information.

I didn't know that article was wrong in fairness.

(jakeke, It's 3 breaks in less than 4 years, not 5).

Don't forget as well there was an off the ball incident with Adebayor which left him out for 3 weeks (ankle again). Not only was the consequence of the tackle bad, but it also appears to have been motivated by revenge.

I seem to remember something earlier on during this Saturday's match involving Shawcross. A bit of handbags...:

Smash his stupid little face off Ryan

Haha, gave him the dirtiest look evar

That with the Jeffers' incident (a tackle from behind, ligament damage), the guy's 22 ffs, will he be given a dirty reputation now? Of course not.

 

[toshj]

i personally feel it was more of an unfortunate challenge than a malicious one.

in shawcross' defence, if a player is going to go into a 50/50 challenge with one foot anchored into the grass (and at a twisted ankle) against a side who have approached the game in a physcial manner, then a broken leg outcome isn't really a surprise.

i think this is an accident and more a result of technical play versus physical play.

yes, shawcross could have been more sensible in making that challenge. but i don't see it was his responsibilty to be sensible. he's a 22 year old defender who's got a reputation for fully comitting to tackles and getting his head onto things. his main priorty is to win the ball. obviously he didn't on this occasion, but he certainly went for the ball and not the player.

i feel this will have a big impact on the both shawcross and ramsey, and can see this having a strong affect on their development and future commitment to tackles.

i suppose having been subjected to 20 years of league 1 and 2 matches i'm more biased towards a physical approach to defending...

 

[Slogan]

..but i don't see it was his responsibilty to be sensible.

I agree with most of your post barring this line. It's every players responsibility to be sensible going into games and individual tackles.

I think Shawcross was sensible in that his challenge was for the ball and the result as we've all discussed, was horrible and very unlucky for Ramsey. The tackle as I've said before was not a leg-breaker in its style. If you want to break someone's leg (i.e 'do them') you can do it in other more obvious ways.

This idea that Arsenal get picked on isn't really sinking with me. It sounds like something Wenger has come up with to defend his team against their lack of physicality in the game. Of course teams will impose themselves physically if they believe they have an advantage over another team - it doesn't matter whether it's Arsenal or anyone else.

Just because they do so doesn't mean they're out to break everyone's leg.

 

[Gilly]

I only believe in what I see, and that's every week a different English player or manager saying 'the ONLY way to cope with Arsenal is to get up 'em'. How come Man Utd and Chelsea don't smash in with OTT challenges in the games? Fletcher is Man Utd's dirtiest player and I'd never, ever imagine him going in with a challenge like Shawcross did.

Scholes has plenty of times. Slightly late in a 50/50 is all it was.

 

[jakeke]

All pros should be conscious of other pros as disasters like this can happen, I think it's definitely their responsibility to be sensible.

As said before, I don't mind the physical approach to the game at all, I don't think anybody is complaining about that, Arsenal never complain when they get fouled they get up and get on with it usually. There has to be a limit though, the Cana tackle last week was a disaster and the ref only gave him a yellow, the refs need to be stronger in general. Same yesterday with Cuellar, for that to not be a yellow is absolute madness. That could have crippled Evra if he wasn't extremely fast.

This idea that Arsenal get picked on isn't really sinking with me. It sounds like something Wenger has come up with to defend his team against their lack of physicality in the game.

Don't want to cover old ground but you must recall the phrase you have to get stuck into Arsenal and they don't like it up 'em? Also see my Fuller quotes from a few pages back, I think that the fact the opposition actually said it in the build up to the games means there is certainly something in it all.

Also disagree with the Arsenal have a lack of physicality myth. This season they've shown they don't get bullied, yesterday they were matching Stoke physically for sure and even scored a header D!). Don't confuse lack of physicality with something else, Arsenal have been in the fight this season

 

[Greenlizard0]

I agree, there's a mismatch between the extremes of punishments available and usually given. There's something slightly peculier about Shawcross missing just the one more game than Alex Song will due to an accumulation of yellows.

 

[jakeke]

That Song one wasn't even a foul (very generous if so), he got a yellow and subsequently a 2 game ban. Odd

 

[toshj]

I agree with most of your post barring this line. It's every players responsibility to be sensible going into games and individual tackles.

I think Shawcross was sensible in that his challenge was for the ball and the result as we've all discussed, was horrible and very unlucky for Ramsey. The tackle as I've said before was not a leg-breaker in its style. If you want to break someone's leg (i.e 'do them') you can do it in other more obvious ways.

i completely understand, but from my perspective the most sensible thing to do would be to not ground your foot in the grass. if you've got a 12 stone 6'4" defender charging towards you with honest but reckless abandon, and you're fully aware that he's going to go for the ball but he's going to do it 100% effort, then most people would have left their leg off the floor, fallen over and taken the foul - maybe shawcross would have received a booking.

i just imagine that players in that mould (young, eager to please and keen) won't always weigh up the sensible option in that moment, as regardless of getting the ball he's unlikely to get hurt. whereas, as the smaller player facing this challenge, you're going to be fully aware that any contact is likely to hurt. minimising this by not grounding your foot would have resulted in a normal free kick.

obviously, at the pace these things happen, weighing up those options and taking a sensible/rational approach to not getting injured is not an easy thing.

i also think another contributing factor to this is that when someone is about to challenge you illegally (two footed, late, etc.) you get a strong feeling that its going to happen and can adjust your play accordingly. because this wasn't an intentional illegal challenge, ramsey wasn't probably aware this was likely to happen and positioned himself so.

like i said, i just think this is purely one of those accidents that's going to happen from time to time. people don't do this purposefully to arsenal, but they do play very physically against them. i reckon this is down to their size and fluid approachm, but i don't understand why they should get protection. its their choice to play in this manner, and should accept the consequences. no one's forcing them to play attractive football.

from what i recall, and i could be very wrong, but you didn't see this type of approach from the opposition when arsenal had stronger midfielders (viera, parlour, petit etc.) and maybe arsene bringing in a few tougher midfielders would straighen this out.

 

[Nogimmix]

Ramsey's leg was broken before the impact of the challenge. It seems the soft turf played it's part in his unfortunate injury.

Shawcross isn't a dirty player and hopefully Wenger will retract these strong words he said after the game.

 

[BaZ87]

I agree, there's a mismatch between the extremes of punishments available and usually given. There's something slightly peculier about Shawcross missing just the one more game than Alex Song will due to an accumulation of yellows.

Shawcross shouldn't have even been sent off. It was a foul but nothing more, it was just incredibly unfortunate that Ramsey broke his leg.

 

[Greenlizard0]

Shawcross shouldn't have even been sent off. It was a foul but nothing more, it was just incredibly unfortunate that Ramsey broke his leg.

I disagree.

Take for example a bloke driving through a red light. There's already a set of punishments for doing that, though he may get away with a verbal warning. Now say he injures somebody who was crossing at the time, wouldn't the punishment for that be more severe, irrespective of whether the result of the collision is unfortunate or it's believed intent was non-malevolent?

As I've pointed out above, I don't believe Shawcross is a particularly clean player. Being full blooded and "committed" in the tackle aren't reasons that cut it in terms of a guy who's only 22 but has put out 3 players for weeks or more already.

 

[CliffyBiro]

I disagree.

Take for example a bloke driving through a red light. There's already a set of punishments for doing that, though he may get away with a verbal warning. Now say he injures somebody who was crossing at the time, wouldn't the punishment for that be more severe, irrespective of whether the result of the collision is unfortunate or it's believed intent was non-malevolent?

As I've pointed out above, I don't believe Shawcross is a particularly clean player. Being full blooded and "committed" in the tackle aren't reasons that cut it in terms of a guy who's only 22 but has put out 3 players for weeks or more already.

It wasn't a bad challenge. Certainly not a red anyway. It was just an unfortunate accident.

 

[mike62]

I disagree.

Take for example a bloke driving through a red light. There's already a set of punishments for doing that, though he may get away with a verbal warning. Now say he injures somebody who was crossing at the time, wouldn't the punishment for that be more severe, irrespective of whether the result of the collision is unfortunate or it's believed intent was non-malevolent?

As I've pointed out above, I don't believe Shawcross is a particularly clean player. Being full blooded and "committed" in the tackle aren't reasons that cut it in terms of a guy who's only 22 but has put out 3 players for weeks or more already.

Ramsey 'dived' in at full pelt as well, did he bring it on himself?

 

[Gilly]

That's the unfortunate bit. He didn't pull out of the challenge in any way, which is what usually hurts people.

 

[One More Solo]

It wasn't a bad challenge. Certainly not a red anyway. It was just an unfortunate accident.

Exactly, end of debate. Punishments in football should have nothing to do with what happens to the players at the end of it.

 

[Tunney]

To anyone who doesn't think that it was a bad tackle, I suggest reading Englischer Fussball by Raphael Honigstein. It's an interesting read, especially about differing attitudes on tackling in Britain and the continent.

People need to decide what kind of football they prefer - the physical and full-bloodied approach of Stoke or the attractive flair play of Arsenal.