Entitlement what can we do about it.

[bigmike20vt]

It's a problem I've come across recently, particularly when recruiting. Looking for a graduate engineer and they're expecting £50k+. T

I will admit 50k is excessive but don't forget a lot of the older generation who started on practically nothing (of whom I am one) didn't have to pay tuition fees at uni, and some even got a grant.

not to mention house prices and general cost of living is comparatively far higher now

not saying OP is totally without merit just that it isn't cut and dry. if I was starting work with a 40k debt (number plucked out of my ass) after finishing uni I would likely not want to start on the 12k that I started on back in 1998 (even adjusting for inflation)

 

[Rai200]

Your mistake here is assuming you (or whomever you are referring to), is supplying greater productivity. Greater productivity than who/what?

United Kingdom Productivity

Productivity in the United Kingdom decreased to 99.10 points in the third quarter of 2024 from 99.90 points in the second quarter of 2024. This page provides the latest reported value for - United Kingdom Productivity - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and...

tradingeconomics.com

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[delta0]

It's a problem I've come across recently, particularly when recruiting. Looking for a graduate engineer and they're expecting £50k+. They're on a completely different planet.
When you do recruit someone young 9 times out of 10 they're lazy. Also having mummy call in sick for them on a Monday because they've had a tough weekend is all too common.

When I graduated 15 years ago it was a starting salary of £30k everyone was after in engineering. I got very close. In todays money that’s just shy of £50k.

 

[Haggisman]

United Kingdom Productivity

Productivity in the United Kingdom decreased to 99.10 points in the third quarter of 2024 from 99.90 points in the second quarter of 2024. This page provides the latest reported value for - United Kingdom Productivity - plus previous releases, historical high and low, short-term forecast and...

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Switch to max view.

That does show increased productivity, true, but looking at it in comparison to this:

United Kingdom Average Weekly Wages

Wages in the United Kingdom increased to 706 GBP/Week in October from 700 GBP/Week in September of 2024. This page provides - United Kingdom Average Weekly Wages - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news.

tradingeconomics.com

Wages have increased inline (in fact in excess of) productivity.

Looking at 2000, productivity is ~85, compared to 2022 where it's ~101 - an increase of 18%
Same period for average weekly wages, 2000 is ~£300, 2022 is ~£610, and increase of over 50%.

The problem is not that people aren't getting greater pay for greater productivity, it's that neither are keeping up with inflation over the same period.

 

[AndyT]

You can always tell someone doesn't have an argument when they have to take it to extremes.

If you're happy with what you've got, great.
If you're not happy with what you've got then your options are:

1. Learn to be happy with it
2. Do something about it
3. Moan about how life isn't fair

2 of those options are productive and will result in (greater) happiness. The third option won't, but it takes a hell of a lot less effort, so hardly surprising that it's the option that most people take.



The problem isn't wanting something, it's expecting it, and blaming "someone else" when they don't get it - be that money, a nice job, new car, big house, whatever.

I want to be surrounded by a harem of bikini clad young women tending to my every needs. Doesn't mean I get to expect it, and when I don't get it, have the right to moan that "someone else" isn't making it happen.



Like you've acknowledged, saying "I want to get paid what I'm worth" is meaningless, as clearly he IS getting paid what he's worth. The key thing to bear in mind is that "what I'm worth" and "what I think I'm worth" aren't necessarily the same thing

And yes, you're absolutely right, the examples in the OP aren't great, as they've gone with option 2.

I don't have an argument? What? What exactly is your point?

They are not expecting things to be different and they are not expecting everyone else to accommodate. They are expressing a desire for things to be different and managing their situation anyway. To call them entitled for expressing a desire for things to be different at the same time as completely disregarding the fact that they are significantly economically disadvantaged relative to their historical peers seems completely unfair.

Are you saying that young people are generally entitled in the work place? If that's what you're saying, just say it.

My experience is that graduates tend to come in, get up to speed quickly and do a good job, and the really entitled people (the crusty old coasters ~50 who complain that the grad salaries are "catching up with them") don't like it because they make them look bad. Maybe that's because we tend to look after the grads, respect them as people and develop them, whilst trying to fit roles with skills and make efforts to see what they want to get out of the job.

Otherwise you don't seem to have a point. Where in the article does it say that young people are moaning and doing nothing about the situation and expecting things to change around them? Who exactly is complaining like a child? It's OP. OP is complaining like a child.

The guy in the article isn't even getting paid yet, he hasn't got a job, so he's not "getting paid what he's worth"; he's not getting paid. We don't even know what he does. We know two facts about the people in the article: they are economically disadvantaged relative to their historical peers and they are supporting themselves regardless.

The other guy in here giving it big licks about "his grads" is paying graduate engineers 25k, and barely the overall average grad salary across all grad roles, which if true, is below the average salary for grad engineering roles. I don't know what company it's in, but I would be encouraging a talented grad to hold out for something better than what he's offering. That's not being entitled is it?

A poor team is not down to poor people, it's down to poor leadership. If the grads in OPs company are underperforming, perhaps OP should take ownership of this as a reflection of poor leadership. Society changes, and we must all adapt. If we expect our children to adapt to knowing that if they follow the traditional path of having one job (imagine!) then they will have less disposable income over their lifetime, then the least the older generations can do is provide good leadership.

 

[Haggisman]

Are you saying that young people are generally entitled in the work place? If that's what you're saying, just say it.

I'm saying that some people have unrealistic expectations, and act as if it is their right to have those expectations met.

It's not a hard concept to grasp, unless you're trying to claim that the above statement isn't true?

 

[Freddie1980]

There's plenty varring POV in this thread, ultimately what it comes down to is what a company can afford to pay. You basic salary as a graduate or as employee who is look to move roles is determined by industry competitiveness and affordability. While from a from a historical and analytical POV it's what people were getting paid for in the past + inflation, cost of living, how much we value graduates is all rather interesting it doesn't not really factor into how much somebody is getting paid.

If pay is that important to you then perhaps you should look at what graduate jobs are paying the field of work your looking to get into BEFORE you start you a degree. There are graduates that do get well a paid graduate role but typically they have 1st and 2:1 from top universities but if you ended up scrapping a 3rd in some inner city ex-polytechnic good luck getting that elusive £50k role you think you deserve and prepare to work from the bottom and work up.

 

[AndyT]

I'm saying that some people have unrealistic expectations, and act as if it is their right to have those expectations met.

It's not a hard concept to grasp, unless you're trying to claim that the above statement isn't true?

Obviously that is true, it has been true for millennia, but that's not what is being debated. What is being debated is the belief that in general, young people are entitled. I don't think that's true, and in fact I believe that any concerns they have are perfectly reasonable due to the lifelong economic disadvantages they now face. Just give them a break.

And I don't think you were only trying to point out that "some" people are entitled, because it doesn't really need pointing out does it?

Again, desiring the same quality of life as historical economic peers isn't being entitled. The wrong people are being criticised in the OP.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

Making money writing about Lego? I would say he needs to put the toys away and grow up.

A job is a job at the end of the day doesn't matter what it's doing. Services, Selling Products, Support, Customer Services e.t.c everyone has a job to do.

 

[Werewolf]

Entitlement isn't the sole domain of the young.

I also don't envy them of having £40k+ of debt to start their careers with.

This.

If you've got a job that requires something like 20-40k of debt before you even get a foot in the door, you shouldn't be getting paid barely minimum wage when you start it, the starting salery should reflect that investment, the most obvious place I can think of for this is nursing, where the government has turned it into a profession that in many cases can't be done unless you are well off, willing to sacrifice everything else, or have a very understanding family, and they wonder why we have a real issue with getting UK people to train for it, or indeed to stay in the profession (even something as simple as making all the tuition required for it free, with a small "pay while you study" would likely make a massive difference, let alone actually increasing starting pay to always go up with inflation).

I think a lot of people who go on about how "entitled the young are" are forgetting how different it is today compared to 10-20 years ago, let alone the 30+ that would be accurate for many of the complainers, things like the absolute base cost of living having gone up massively (mainly due to the real basics, such as housing and food), the fact that many more young people are starting lives in massive debt because they've had to go to university to just get their job applications looked past the first stage of culling, and that many jobs haven't kept wages up with even just base rate inflation (especially those in the public sector that have had freezes/under inflation rises for most of the last 10 years).

 

[krooton]

1. Take away the younger generation's opportunity to easily experience working throughout Europe.
2. Straddle them with more student debt than ever before.
3. Make the idea of owning a property essentially a fairy-tale to them.
4. ??????
5. Profit!
6. Get knickers in a twist when they are dissatisfied with how to job-market treats graduates.

I have worked with 2 graduates in my team for the past 2 years (both were fresh out of uni, but with non-specialist degrees). Both are super switched on, great work ethic and a thirst to learn and take on responsibilities.

Thankfully my company rewards staff who perform.

 

[Werewolf]

If pay is that important to you then perhaps you should look at what graduate jobs are paying the field of work your looking to get into BEFORE you start you a degree. There are graduates that do get well a paid graduate role but typically they have 1st and 2:1 from top universities but if you ended up scrapping a 3rd in some inner city ex-polytechnic good luck getting that elusive £50k role you think you deserve and prepare to work from the bottom and work up.

So you should have a crystal ball before you start your degree?

A friend of mine has a degree in a very technical, very much needed field, but it's relatively small in the UK. To give an idea of how much in demand, IIRC he was sponsored throughout his university by a company on the understanding he would work for them for a couple of years as a researcher after qualifying.
About the time he qualified a lot of the research institutes where his qualifications would be applicable changed the rules about promotion for new staff, effectively meaning that unless you took one specific career track (away from research) you were very unlikely to ever reach the same level of pay as those that were already there, and doing the job you were looking to do.
So he went into a long, very technical, very complicated degree/phd knowing it was in demand and should in theory pay well enough to live on, only to find that the rules were changed whilst he was doing the very hard work needed to get a foot in the door and the only way he could then advance was to move away from what he is very good at (and enjoys), to something he's ok at but dislikes.

It's easy to say "you should look at what jobs are available before you do your degree", but that completely ignores the fact that whilst you're spending years on that degree the world can change, and your very carefully chosen industry can change massively whilst you're building up debt to get started in it.

 

[dowie]

There's plenty varring POV in this thread, ultimately what it comes down to is what a company can afford to pay. You basic salary as a graduate or as employee who is look to move roles is determined by industry competitiveness and affordability.

^^^ This, at least in terms of general starting pay for new grads and the general range they'll have available for experienced hires; certainly limits the upper bound of that range and influences the median.

Obviously, when moving jobs your current compensation can be a big factor too and might provide some exceptions - if you're paid relatively little then even if they could afford to pay more some companies might be reluctant to give huge pay rises or might simply put you in at a lower grade than another better paid candidate. Conversely, if they really need to hire someone with some specific skillset and that's rare/hard to find at some point in time then they might well end up having to pay a bit more than they can really afford to for that role for that particular person or indeed simply if you're very well paid elsewhere and they still want to hire you (as in if the rest of the team finds out then they don't have the budget to pay everyone that amount). Big tech firms sometimes even have special schemes for this in the case where you're well paid elsewhere, like say someone moving from finance to tech might be earning more than is typical for the grade they'd best fit, rather than fudging things and giving someone an unwarranted title they'll instead grade them appropriately but put them on a special higher compensation scheme (and maybe some other goodies like, they'll get put on a high impact project and have better chances of promoting quickly to a level where their compensation doesn't then need a special enhancement.)

Sometimes there is pressure to adjust things but it's a zero-sum game, some top US law firms started paying juniors/newly qualified lawyers more in London so some other firms followed suit, that money has to come from somewhere so presumably others, inc partners, had to take a slight hit.

Realistically some small local solicitors firms outside London can't afford to pay 120k for a newly qualified solicitor though and likewise, some small tech firm generally can't afford to pay the amounts google or amazon can unless they're perhaps some very hot startup with loads of funding.

 

[dowie]

So you should have a crystal ball before you start your degree?
[...]

It's easy to say "you should look at what jobs are available before you do your degree", but that completely ignores the fact that whilst you're spending years on that degree the world can change, and your very carefully chosen industry can change massively whilst you're building up debt to get started in it.

I'd disagree with that, your exception is some vague description of a friend going into seemingly a very niche area, that is inherently risky without considering alternative plans and doesn't require a crystal ball to see that, especially if the undergrad was a specialist one too. It is unfortunate but there are perhaps far more people making more obvious bad decisions out there too*.

A solid degree in any subject from a top university has generally always been a good bet and still is today. A useful subject at a broader range of universities is also a good bet.

If it was a specialist undergrad then that's unfortunate and they're often unnecessary especially if pursuing a PhD afterwards.

*Studying say International Trading and Finance at the University of Scunthorpe in the hope of landing a front office role in a big bank in London is probably a bad idea when the actual grad intake ends up being say; "Engineering - Cambridge", "Maths & Economics - Warwick", "Classics - Oxford"... and even the guy who studied classics still has A* @ Maths A-level and performs better when solving problems at interview than the guy who allegedly spent 3 years studying for a "BSc" but still remains borderline innumerate.

 

[Allnamestaken]

I find it hilarious that a lot of these grad roles including in stem and other fields result in you having 40-50k+ Debt and then you ******* boomers call them entitled for expecting a grad salary that is atleast in line with that.

The time invested via uni etc for these grad roles needs to be reflected in the salary.

The vast majority of the idiots who call our generations entitled had to pay **** all to go to university.

 

[LabR@t]

I find it hilarious that a lot of these grad roles including in stem and other fields result in you having 40-50k+ Debt and then you ******* boomers call them entitled for expecting a grad salary that is atleast in line with that.

The time invested via uni etc for these grad roles needs to be reflected in the salary.

The vast majority of the idiots who call our generations entitled had to pay **** all to go to university.

You don't need to go to university, it was a big con to lower unemployment figures the vast majority of degrees are useless and devalues them. Some are with having but there are a lot at just honestly not be worth it

Dance and Wastes Management, University of Northampton

www.educationindex.co.uk

 

[Allnamestaken]

You don't need to go to university, it was a big con to lower unemployment figures the vast majority of degrees are useless and devalues them. Some are with having but there are a lot at just honestly not be worth it

Dance and Wastes Management, University of Northampton

www.educationindex.co.uk

I know you don't have go to university depending on the area of study. The thing is though, the people usually moaning about entitlement do not follow these distinctions.

 

[Dis86]

I find it hilarious that a lot of these grad roles including in stem and other fields result in you having 40-50k+ Debt and then you ******* boomers call them entitled for expecting a grad salary that is atleast in line with that.

The time invested via uni etc for these grad roles needs to be reflected in the salary.

The vast majority of the idiots who call our generations entitled had to pay **** all to go to university.

Am I a boomer? Or am I someone that incurred recent university debt?

 

[montymint]

Am I a boomer? Or am I someone that incurred recent university debt?

I'll put you at mid thirties. So some student debt but not a scratch on that of a recent graduate.

 

[LabR@t]

I'll put you at mid thirties. So some student debt but not a scratch on that of a recent graduate.

Look no one made you go to university and get in debt, it was you're choice. Maybe it was a good move maybe in wasn't but it was a choice.