Soldato
*shudders*we've been dire for over a year and are currently heading for a relegation battle.
Never been there before. I don't know if I could handle that.
Poll: Erik ten Hag Sack Watch & Next Manchester United Manager? Sacked. Ruben Amorim appointed.
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
Never been there before. I don't know if I could handle that.
Should have been last
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@Robbo the 'rot' is the players on contracts they do not deserve, e.g. "Rashford bailing out ETH" should be the least of his efforts considering his contract and standing within the squad. The club needs to find a way to recruit hungry players that have fight and desire to win, the manager cannot change the personality of a player. Those that don't show it should be gone, as poor attitude + high wages = a mentality crisis within the squad.
I kind of see the requirement of players like Evans, Maguire, Erikson - their professionalism and application sets good examples to the younger players. The likes of Rashford, Casemiro, Antony, and dare I say it... Fernandes are just infuriating in terms of their attitude and application of their supposed ability - Fergie would have had them gone after some of the performances they've put in.
Edit: You could argue ETH should be getting rid, and he's weak not to, but then he seems to be able to bench Antony - does the club or the fact the players are on such stupid contracts dictate that he can't do that with the others?
I kind of see the requirement of players like Evans, Maguire, Erikson - their professionalism and application sets good examples to the younger players. The likes of Rashford, Casemiro, Antony, and dare I say it... Fernandes are just infuriating in terms of their attitude and application of their supposed ability - Fergie would have had them gone after some of the performances they've put in.
Edit: You could argue ETH should be getting rid, and he's weak not to, but then he seems to be able to bench Antony - does the club or the fact the players are on such stupid contracts dictate that he can't do that with the others?
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Soldato
Year before I was born.Should have been last year for some lovely 50 year symmetry, but we'll take this season aswell
Lovely 50th birthday present coming up for you then
Caporegime
This therein lies the problem. Klopp has left a very capable squad and mentality for the next manager to walk in and do a good job and it has paid dividends.
Fergie whilst winning on a high knew the end was coming. We hadn't spent big for years and the squad was aging. There was no continuation of the United way so when Fergie left it went downhill rather quickly. Compounded with Gill leaving as well.
I would say the major turning point was when Pogba came in and Jlingz too. Rio alluded to this on his recent podcast with Phil Jones and before you know it all the young kids are running a riot and no one is putting them in check.
Rashford, Greenwood would have turned out the way they did if Scholes, Giggs and Neville was still in the dressing room.
I can pretty much guarantee that ETH will leave and go somewhere else and be successful. The problem isn't him as a manager but maybe he lacks the ability to control the culture which is a very difficult thing to change.
And I don't disagree with any of that, but Rashford is not to blame for Antony being an £80m flop - a player ETH knows well and wanted. There are multiple issues at play here but the manager for me is the immediate big one, he's had plenty of time and failed miserably. We could buy him 10 more players and get absolutely nowhere - based on current evidence. Way too big of a risk.
It's no good looking backwards, INEOS have installed what I believe to be a good football structure, but they haven't yet appointed the critical person - the manager. Cue the Gareth Southgate jokes!
I'd argue that there is no manager on this earth that can come in and 'fix' the attitude issues. That culture comes from the top down, and the players keep getting away with it because the manager keeps getting booted when it inevitably turns to ****.
Caporegime
Jose said it, Ralf said it and so did Ole. Nothing will change. ETH will go somewhere else and win.
I am still with ETH as I do not think he is the core problem. He dropped both Martinez and De Ligt because their application was just shocking against Porto. That is on them not the manager. Martinez has been extremely poor for a few games now.
You can't simply blame 'attitude issues' when the players he's dropping are his own. It's lazy to just say nothing will change and absolve the manager of any responsibility - he's shown nothing in terms of any progress. Nothing. What do you want? Give him another season to throw away? We finish 12th, sign a few more players, and then finish 14th? It's nonsense. Last season was utterly terrible and this season feels even worse, he's got to go, today. I am genuinely stunned people are fooled by him and are happy to put him ahead of the club based on him being a decent Ajax manager years ago? Madness.
ETH isn't the only problem, but clearly he is one of the problems. Clearly!
It's his team. He's had long enough to shape it and barring some miracle, he has failed.
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Caporegime
I am stunned you actually think a different manager will lead to another outcome. We might have a little bounce but then it will be back to the same. How many managers do you need to go through before you finally realise the issues are far deeper?
Caporegime
I think there are just a lot of issues and they are all contributing to the overall mess.
I don't think we have a bad bunch of players now. I think that if we got a new manager in who gets the players excited and winning again then a lot of our issues will evaporate. Its very hard to recover from the position we are in while keeping the same manager. What he is doing is not working. The outcome of his training and tactics are not working and if he isn't changing that, the players are probably not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel.
If results are poor, things aren't changing, training isn't working and the manager sits on the precipice, what do we expect.
I honestly can't look at this team and say "thats a crap bunch of players" and yet as a unit they perform badly. And thats the big issue. As a team they don't look like a team. When we play almost any other team, they look like they have patterns and know what to do, where to be and how to move the ball. We are still playing walking football a lot of the time and I think thats a symptom of having very little idea what the options are/should be.
I don't think we have a bad bunch of players now. I think that if we got a new manager in who gets the players excited and winning again then a lot of our issues will evaporate. Its very hard to recover from the position we are in while keeping the same manager. What he is doing is not working. The outcome of his training and tactics are not working and if he isn't changing that, the players are probably not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel.
If results are poor, things aren't changing, training isn't working and the manager sits on the precipice, what do we expect.
I honestly can't look at this team and say "thats a crap bunch of players" and yet as a unit they perform badly. And thats the big issue. As a team they don't look like a team. When we play almost any other team, they look like they have patterns and know what to do, where to be and how to move the ball. We are still playing walking football a lot of the time and I think thats a symptom of having very little idea what the options are/should be.
As many as are required until we actually hire a competent one? LvG and Jose were on the decline. Moyes was Moyes. I thought Solskjaer was a massive gamble but he did reasonably well.
ETH came in, had an OK first season. Signed the players he wanted, and now we're cemented in the lower part of the table with no signs of hope. Great. ETH seems completely unable to get a tune out of the players, they don't even look like they are being coached at all. I think these 'deep' issues are being overstated because of a misguided belief that if you give a manager time he will come good - not true. The 'rot' for me was poorly appointed 'football men' at the club, these have been replaced by what we hope are superior people.
And with the greatest of respect Adam, you spent all of last season telling everyone things would turn around when we had more defenders available. You were wrong.
Caporegime
We're not cemented in the lower part of the table at all, it's been 7 games. The points gap between top and bottom is so low that a few wins can drastically change your position. This talk of being in a relegation battle is utter delusion. Sacking ETH isn't going to suddenly make the players finish their chances.
So you think our main issue has been finishing? Have you been watching the games... there's no structure to the team at all.
Last season we should have actually finished lower in the table and were a bit fortunate, statistically.
You're happy with ETH then and want to keep him? Last season he just needed a whole new defence, now we just need a world class striker? Next season it'll be a new midfield.
Caporegime
Our main issue has undoubtedly been finishing yes. We are massively underperforming in that area.
Didn't say anything about being happy with ETH either, again I ask what is the plan? Sacking him with no plan is utter stupidity. We need a better option to actually go with next. Is van Nistelrooy a better manager? Unlikely. Is getting Tuchel in for a few years before he implodes worth it? Probably not. If the manager they decide we want isn't available until the summer is it really worth going over 3/4 of the season with an interim? Last time that was an utter disaster. It's just not as simple as Do bad > Sack manager > Problem fixed. If the highly paid football experts we've appointed think it's not a good move now then I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt.
I know it's not that simple, but there comes a point where it's inevitable. He isn't able to get a tune out of the players, despite his best efforts. Defensively, offensively, and in midfield we look the worst coached team in the league. That isn't acceptable. Our strongest XI is capable of giving anyone a game if the players are well coached and motivated, at the moment they can't even do the basics right.
I don't think RvN is really going to be a solution either, I have a feeling Ashworth would look at someone like Potter instead...
Caporegime
His first season was 76 points which is our second highest points total since SAF. It was pragmatic football as he saw very early on he couldn't play how he wants. We also won the League Cup
Last season was a complete wright off due to injuries but we still managed to win the FA Cup.
This season has started badly yes but there seems to be more to it than meets the eye. The game against Porto was entirely on the players as was the first game really as we were in total control of both and threw them away. I think it is too early to sack him yet but if he has lost the dressing room then it will be hard to come back.
It is also pretty funny that all ex players are calling out the players and not the manager but what do they know.
Also all the stats seem to indicate that we are creating chances and big ones yet all our conversion stats are rock bottom. That is on the players not the manager.
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Soldato
I can't see how our issue is finishing, I can only think of one game where we played well yet couldn't stick it in the net which was against Crystal Palace. I don't think we create enough going forward, even in the Porto game I felt the first two goals were gifted to us by their keeper and in the Villa game our xG was 0.56.
I certainly don't see people saying we were all over x, y and z team but we just were not clinical enough.
I certainly don't see people saying we were all over x, y and z team but we just were not clinical enough.