I'll vote to stay in if the proposed immigration reforms are put in place. They make sense.
Poll: EU Referendum Voting Intentions
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I'll vote to stay in if the proposed immigration reforms are put in place. They make sense.
Caporegime
That has rather more to do with Cameron's rank incompetence when it comes to European diplomacy than anything else. He began steadily undermining his own influence in Europe from long before he ever become PM with his jaw-droppingly dumb decision to pull the Tories out of the EPP and he hasn't shown any more sense in his inept dealings with Europe since.
It's not down to the EU that we're failing to have influence it's down to incompetent diplomacy and leadership from Cameron.
Caporegime
I think it's the absolute best thing about the EU. All those opportunities we enjoy!
Caporegime
Of course there's an appetite for such a thing - D'Estang, Monti, Juncker et al have as good as admitted it. Former President of the EC Jean-Manuel Barroso said of David Cameron's current negotiations that he was happy to negotiate as long as it didn't derail "the project that we are working towards". Well it'd be good if he specified exactly what this project was in time for the referendum - I bet he doesn't though.
Compare what the EU is now, with what the UK voted to join in 1973. Remember that you're not voting for the status quo you're voting about the future and you're required to make a judgement about what that future will be. We won't get another opportunity to leave the EU - if we vote Yes then whatever it looks like in 40 years we'll be part of it.
Lol, scorza. The vote will be for the status quo, don't be silly. Any evolution of the EU will be done with more approvals and any country can opt out or exit the EU at any time. This isn't the USSR...
Everyone benefits from the existance of the EU.
•Over ten years, the Single Market has boosted the EU’s GDP by €877 billion [£588 billion]. This represents €5,700 [£3,819] of extra income per household.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives..../europe/benefits-eu-membership/page22676.html
Alternatively, if we consider all years since accession, the respective figures would be about 34% for the former, and 5% for the latter. We find that per capita incomes in the UK and Denmark would have been 25% lower (if they had not joined the EU in 1973), but that the benefits for Ireland are even larger. Our estimates suggest that per capita income in Ireland would have been about 50% lower if it had not joined the EU in 1973.
http://www.voxeu.org/article/how-rich-nations-benefit-eu-membership
Caporegime
There's no option to vote for the status quo because the project to build a federal EU superstate will continue.
I raised a possible future scenario earlier, where the federal government in Brussels decides that fracking can go ahead in West Lancashire, and the money raised will be used to build roads in Southern Europe. Presumably you and Mr Jack would be OK with that?
Caporegime
Around 1.6 million Britains are currently taking advantage of it, and given the rates of back and forth migration between the UK and the rest of the EU presumably the total number doing so is considerably higher, perhaps double. Which would make it around 5% of the population who directly take advantage of the opportunities available. That's very much a back-of-the-envelope calculation, however.
I expect that number to increase however. Little-by-little our country is becoming more cosmopolitan and, in particular, younger people going to university today will be more exposed to the opportunities it brings.
Even if you do not go personally, you benefit from being part of that larger, richer job market.
Studying abroad is one thing; most countries are welcoming to the money it brings in. The right to live and work is another.
Caporegime
No, I think fracking is incredibly stupid and shouldn't be allowed at all
I have no problem with the redistribution of wealth among parts of a country, or between parts of the EU, and I would have no problem its redistribution in a federal Europe. We all benefit when are partners do well.
Caporegime
No, I think fracking is incredibly stupid and shouldn't be allowed at all
I have no problem with the redistribution of wealth among parts of a country, or between parts of the EU, and I would have no problem its redistribution in a federal Europe. We all benefit when are partners do well.
But if MEPs in Southern Europe want new roads, and MEPs in Eastern Europe want cheap gas, why shouldn't Brussels frack the hell out of west Lancs? That's democracy init?
Soldato
My personal opinion is I'd rather we didn't have a vote on it as very few if any of us (including myself) have a real full understanding of the implications of leaving the EU and getting any actual truth from the politicians on both sides of the argument will be next to impossible as they have their own agenda.
Which throws open the general public voting on an issue which could have huge ramifications where for the majority of them the paper might as well say 'immigrants send them back or let them stay' as that's all they'll be making their decision based on.
Which throws open the general public voting on an issue which could have huge ramifications where for the majority of them the paper might as well say 'immigrants send them back or let them stay' as that's all they'll be making their decision based on.
^ This. Maybe Switzerland manages OK with having loads of referenda, maybe people are better informed and take the process more seriously there, I don't know. But I'm very doubtful most people in the UK can be trusted with this kind of decision. Should be left to academics and technocrats.
Despite the fact that I'd vote a strong NO I'm not actually dead against the EU.
I just don't think it's going to get the reform it needs without people pulling out of it.
Currently I don't hold the organisation that many rungs above FIFA. It exists to serve itself, it wastes money at an incredible rate, and it's dreadfully out of touch and thinks it's impenetrable.
I just don't think it's going to get the reform it needs without people pulling out of it.
Currently I don't hold the organisation that many rungs above FIFA. It exists to serve itself, it wastes money at an incredible rate, and it's dreadfully out of touch and thinks it's impenetrable.
Associate
and free movement of people that EFTA brings
Why can't we have zero import duty and no free movement of people?
Caporegime
Speaking of Sepp, there are strong rumours that the French, Spanish, Italian and Belgian FAs voted for Sepp in yesterday's FIFA ballot. Just something to consider before we allow MEPs from those countries to hold actual power over the UK.
I'd rather some renegotiations and no referendum, personally.
Even for you - a leap from member states of FIFA to the MEPs is one huge tarring with one huge brush.
Even for you - a leap from member states of FIFA to the MEPs is one huge tarring with one huge brush.
Caporegime
So you'd go into a negotiation without perhaps our only bargaining chip? Smart.
I'm just pointing out that if we go into a federal EU, which we will if we vote Yes, then we'll be increasingly subject to the authority of people who perhaps don't share the same values as we do.
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Caporegime
Less of them, and they'd do so on less favourable terms. Just as many of the people who come to the UK could do so even without free movement of labour. The advantage is in the right to do so. There's no consideration of having to worry about visas or being kicked out of the country if you lose your job.
Some of them, that is true.
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