Indeed, if it's the car that giving Vettel his pace, then Webber must be really bad. Vettel has stepped up a gear this year.
European Grand Prix 2011, Valencia Street Circuit - Race 8/19
- Thread starter Glaucus
- Start date
Indeed, if it's the car that giving Vettel his pace, then Webber must be really bad. Vettel has stepped up a gear this year.
Soldato
I was waiting for Lewis to reply " **** you, I go as fast as I can, if the tyres don't last schedule an extra pitstop""Lewis your tyres are hot", so the crap what, its a hot track, they are hot, burn round at top speed and do an extra stop. Frankly if he'd burned round faster and done an extra stop he'd likely have done better.
I think the most depressing thing in the past 2-3 years is essentially all race every race every radio guy saying "slow down, you're going to fast"
But I must admit I nodded off for 20 laps or so so I did not hear all comments he made.
Soldato
Maybe the car setup/design is so that it is tailored to Vettels preferences and Webber is struggling to get a setup he likes?
Soldato
I've got the feeling the largest gap overturned was in '76, given the points system and how scores were lower back then anyway (9 points for a win, 6 for second, 4 for third, 3, 2 and 1 down to sixth place). After the British GP that year, Lauda had 61 points and Hunt (who was DQ'd from the British GP for no good reason) had 26.
The next race was Germany, where Hunt won and Lauda was barbecued. 61-35. Lauda missed the next two races, Hunt getting a 4th and a win. 61-47. Lauda returned for the Italian GP, getting a 4th while Hunt retired. 64-47. Hunt then won the next two races (he'd been given the DQ from the British GP now, so was in full-on 'don't-give-a-****' mode
) with Lauda failing to score in Canada but getting onto the podium at the US GP. 68-65. And then in the final round at Mt Fuji, Lauda pulled out and Hunt snatched 3rd pace with a couple of laps remaining - winning the title 69 points to 68.
So Hunt was 35 points adrift or 3.9 race wins. In today's money ~97 points. Hunt only had 9? races to close the gap and did so. Today the gap from Vettel is only 77 points or 3.1 race wins, also there are more races (11) left. So a comeback from Button or Webber (and possibly even Hamilton but I'd discount Alonso) isn't out of the question.
Soldato
Bloody hard work from the boys in the factory is what makes us so quick
More like the hard work from the unofficial boys in another factory(RRA)
I bet there wasn't such a performance difference back then or reliability.
Soldato
7 races, but that's about the size of it. The chances of history repeating itself exactly are fairly remote of course....don't think Vettel will be sitting out a couple of races the way Lauda had to.
Hunt retired three times that year due to mechanical failure (other retirements were down to him simply stacking it). Those three were in the first half of the season, not the second. Lauda retired due to mechanical failure once - again, first half of the season. In fact, in the ten races from Sweden to the end of the year Hunt only failed to score twice - Italy, when he dropped it on lap 11 and Britain when he was DQ'd. As for the difference in performance between the Ferrari 312T/T2 and McLaren M23 - that pretty much see-sawed through the year. Both cars were developments of machinery that had won the title for the last couple of years (the M23 in '74, the 312T in '75).
Last edited:
Certainly unlikely - but then so was Massa's accident in 09, Schumacher's in 99 and a whole host of minor accidents that have resulted in missing a race or two. Maybe there's a 1 in 20 chance of Vettel missing a couple of races due to a crash? Bookies will give you 1:14 on Vettel winning the championship today.
While it's historically possible Lauder was very badly burned and DNF one race and didn't even take part in the next 2. Something like that isn't remotely likely these days.
With 11 races left it sits like this.
If Vettel finishes 2nd in EVERY remaining race he will be on EXACTLY the same amount of points that Button or Webber will be on if ONE of them wins EVERY race. Button/Webber would then get the title because they won more races (I believe?).
Lets say that Button or Webber wins 6 races and comes 2nd in the other 5 and Vettel wins none. Vettel would still only need to finish 3rd in every race to win the championship.
That isn't even if Alonso and Hamilton get involved in the podium.
If somehow those 4 all managed to get 3 wins, 3 2nd places, 3 3rds and 3 4ths each (lets assume there are still 12 races let for a second to make this easier) and it keeps Vettel to 5th place in every race then he would lose out by the end of the season by 25.09 points to Webber/Vettel.
Can we actually see any that happening though?
While there are lots of points left to play for Vettel needs to have a no points finish or god forbid an accident that keeps him out for a couple of races for anyone to realistically have a hope. That person would also need to suddenly get a magical upgrade.
Now we don't know what will happen with the Silverstone rule changes. But Horner said they were not hot blowing which means they'll lose less than others who are, and Hamilton said he isn't too hopeful.
If after Silverstone nothing has really changed then its very very difficult to see anyone else getting a sniff.
Soldato
Yep I just worked this out. If Button won the next 11 races he'd have 384 points and if Vettel came 2nd in the next 11 races Button would have 12 race wins (the next 11 + Canada) to Vettel's 6. If if was Webber for Button then Webber would have 11 race wins to Vettel's 6.
If Vettel wins at Silverstone and then scores 2nd in the remaining 10 races he'd have 391 points which is 7 more than anyone else can score this season. So really Vettel at the moment is aiming for 385 points. However if Webber or Button fail to finish 2nd at Silverstone but come 3rd say that's another 3 points they'd lose out on making Vettel's new target 382.
Associate
Horner has said before that they both have very similar driving styles, though Mark is evidently not using as much of the track as Vettel. Acording to Newey, Vettel has taken to the new tyres like a duck to water but not going so well for Mark. Mark is putting in quick times but not at the key moments.
I cheer for Mark every race, mainly because he is up against it in that team with the chosen golden boy getting all the love, but he HAS to pull his finger out and put pressure on vettel. If Vettel starts experiencing pressure from inside the team, where right now he is extremely insulated, that might make him more ragged and prone to mistakes.
It is becoming a dull has hell championship, but in truth all we really need is Vettel to have, say one bad start and get swallowed up, and maybe to bin it on another occasion (obviously not getting hurt, maybe just some suspension damage etc that puts him out). He cant surely finish 100% of races this season let alone in the top two places.
Soldato
I agree Todge, but we will see, I have a feeling we should be looking at Alonso,
Some interesting on board footage from that race, those cars were banging away like mad when of throttle, absolutely ridiculous.
Personally I think RB are hot blowing, in fact I'm sure they are and don't forget cold blowing is going to be reduced by 90%.
I feel pretty negative about the season given what the drivers were saying, but the more I hear, the less I think the drivers are in the know about the engineering and Horner is not an engineer, just a manager.
Silverstone will be interesting, the cars handling in medium and slow corners is going to change completely, especially the RBs. Why do I think the RBs will be affected more, because they have been using the EBD since the beginning of last year and must have the most refined design.
To me the clearest indication of what could happen is Friday at Silverstone last year when McL tried the EBD for the first time and could not use it. There will be a lot of Button balance problems.
Back to my random thoughts, which tbh could be rubbish.
IF I was going to run the 'extreme' map I would have my engine at full revs, full throttle, full fuel all the time, just adjust the timing to reduce or increase torque when the driver presses the throttle. The car then has maximum downforce at all times.
So we are going from 90% throttle to 10% throttle for medium to slow corners, this is going to totally change tyre wear and mid corner speed.
Medium to high speed corners may not change a lot depending upon the throttle percentage used and the rule clarifications, i.e. if the driver is demanding 50% throttle can the car still give 100% throttle but reduce the torque by retardation. I suspect this will not be allowed.
Some interesting on board footage from that race, those cars were banging away like mad when of throttle, absolutely ridiculous.
Personally I think RB are hot blowing, in fact I'm sure they are and don't forget cold blowing is going to be reduced by 90%.
I feel pretty negative about the season given what the drivers were saying, but the more I hear, the less I think the drivers are in the know about the engineering and Horner is not an engineer, just a manager.
Silverstone will be interesting, the cars handling in medium and slow corners is going to change completely, especially the RBs. Why do I think the RBs will be affected more, because they have been using the EBD since the beginning of last year and must have the most refined design.
To me the clearest indication of what could happen is Friday at Silverstone last year when McL tried the EBD for the first time and could not use it. There will be a lot of Button balance problems.
Back to my random thoughts, which tbh could be rubbish.
IF I was going to run the 'extreme' map I would have my engine at full revs, full throttle, full fuel all the time, just adjust the timing to reduce or increase torque when the driver presses the throttle. The car then has maximum downforce at all times.
So we are going from 90% throttle to 10% throttle for medium to slow corners, this is going to totally change tyre wear and mid corner speed.
Medium to high speed corners may not change a lot depending upon the throttle percentage used and the rule clarifications, i.e. if the driver is demanding 50% throttle can the car still give 100% throttle but reduce the torque by retardation. I suspect this will not be allowed.
If he still has the fastest car and no pressure then its hard to see why not. He seems to get 3 seconds ahead and then turn everything down just enough to stay ahead so the engine and gearbox are probably not working as hard as the chasing pack so reliability is less of an issue and B have done well on that front this year aside from KERs. And you are far less likely to be in an overtaking accident all the time you are 3 seconds down the road.
Soldato
I have read that Webber used the throttle more in corners somehow, Vettel now doesn't need that skill so much as the ecu does it for him.
The more I think about this, the more I think it is going to change things. TBH it will effectively be going back to the start of winter testing.
Soldato
true but Silverstone will show the true pecking order.
for instance, if the EBD equalises the field more in that area, could the McL KERS become a significant advantage?
Quite possibly, but honestly I'm not holding out much hope for all RBs work being undone because of this change. I desperately want McLaren and Ferrari to be competitive with them but as plenty of people have said, there is never one thing that makes you go fast.
Red Bull being bullish about the race and McLaren being all Debbie Downers about it just adds to my thinking.
Of course, it could all be sandbagging, we all know they do it. RB could well be nervous about it and hoping not to let others on while McLaren may well think they are ok but want to downplay it. I just doubt it's going to play out like that however much I want it to.
Soldato
I think if RB still have a good margin in qualifying, and win the race at Silverstone, McLaren and Ferrari will forget developing this years car and move on to next years'.
Im not sure. There's still 2nd place. Where RBR are in the best situation is they are still ahead can abandon this car, still win and develop next years even more. Even if mclaren/Ferrari catch up they are still going to get enough points to win.