EV general discussion

b0rn2sk8 said:
Yup, building EVs profitably can be done, just look at how much Tesla make per car.
Click to expand...
After how many years of literally haemorrhaging cash to get to that point though?

Existing manufacturers don't have the luxury of not balancing the books because people are willing to throw cash at an eccentric character with a vision.

Not really related but to show the crazy financial situations with EV manufacturers... look at VinFast. An out of nowhere company that had never turned a profit and was immediately valued at more than Ford when it floated.
 
Last edited:
b0rn2sk8 said:
Yup, building EVs profitably can be done, just look at how much Tesla make per car.

There is a lot of macro economic factors impacting the car market at the moment and it’s disingenuous to say the difficulties they anre having is due to ZEV mandates. Manufacturers are also having problems shifting ICE cars as well.

It’s almost like no one wants to pay 10+% APR for a car (new or used), oh wait, they don’t.

You don’t have to look very far to find other countries which seem to be managing with the transition a lot better than the U.K. on the surface.
Click to expand...

Ok, lets look, how much do they make compared to how much they make selling credits?

lordrobs said:
After how many years of literally haemorrhaging cash to get to that point though?

Existing manufacturers don't have the luxury of not balancing the books because people are willing to throw cash at an eccentric character with a vision.

Not really related but to show the crazy financial situations with EV manufacturers... look at VinFast. An out of nowhere company that had never turned a profit and was immediately valued at more than Ford when it floated.
Click to expand...

#legacyautomakers.

Arent as free with ethics, social media and no pension funds to manage as the X cowboy rocketman.
 
Last edited:
steve5424 said:
As far as I can tell many manufacturers are still building to order and don't keep loads of stock sitting around. It's also not good business sense to sit with stock lying around.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, which is why the model of having to build X numbers of EVs for every Y ICE must be so concerning for manufacturers who's customers are still, on the whole, after ICE vehicles.
 
From what I've seen in some of the Motability group many are waiting longer for ICE cars from certain manufacturers who are prioritising EV builds.
 
lordrobs said:
After how many years of literally haemorrhaging cash to get to that point though?
Click to expand...
Shock horror, start up company burns a lot of cash while producing next to nothing before launching their product and making a profit. Thanks for pointing out how business works.

lordrobs said:
Existing manufacturers don't have the luxury of not balancing the books because people are willing to throw cash at an eccentric character with a vision.
Click to expand...
That would be because many of them are saddled with huge amounts of debt which need’s servicing, a bit like the UK government….

A few bad years could very well sink them.

Jonnycoupe said:
Ok, lets look, how much do they make compared to how much they make selling credits?
Click to expand...

Who said anything about selling credits?

They make a good margin on every car, that is a well established fact.

I didn’t mention other revenue streams or overall profitability of the company who do more than just make cars…

Jonnycoupe said:
#legacyautomakers.

Arent as free with ethics, social media and no pension funds to manage as the X cowboy rocketman.
Click to expand...

Put your dummy back in. :rolleyes:

We can all make stupid hashtags, how about:

#cantgetinsuranceonmylandrover
 
Last edited:
b0rn2sk8 said:
Shock horror, start up company burns a lot of cash while producing next to nothing before launching their product and making a profit. Thanks for pointing out how business works.
Click to expand...
Most businesses don't get to lose cash for 10 years straight (at a rate of up to $2Bn a year at it's peak) before turning a profit.

There was also 8 years of loss making from the launch of it's mainstream product (Model S) to it becoming profitable.

Don't get me wrong, the guy is a hell of a salesman to keep the money coming in for that long but let's not make out that the path they took is one that most businesses would have the opportunity to follow.
 
steve5424 said:
As far as I can tell many manufacturers are still building to order and don't keep loads of stock sitting around. It's also not good business sense to sit with stock lying around.
Click to expand...

If they keep doing that they can't meet the demand for the rest of the range they offer. That's the point. They are no longer able to only build what people want to order.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Who said anything about selling credits?

They make a good margin on every car, that is a well established fact.

I didn’t mention other revenue streams or overall profitability of the company who do more than just make cars…

Put your dummy back in. :rolleyes:

We can all make stupid hashtags, how about:

#cantgetinsuranceonmylandrover
Click to expand...

Wow hit a nerve there...

I was keen to see the facts, you have to get out of this habit of posting stuff as fact when its often your opinion. When you look at profit you have to consider all revenue streams, for Tesla this includes the credits they can also sell to other OEMs. I dont have the numbers from Tesal to 'look at' so i asked you. It was supposed to lead into a discussion. If production overheads were ammortised against credits sold then that would indeed make the vehicle margin huge.

PS. you havent got a Land Rover.
 
which of the ev's currently share a chassis & production line with ICE to be able to swap resources (can compete for same ship though) - maybe paint shop shared ?

Chinese ev's pressumably have quick availibility (shipping time excluded) with their suffering domestic market, which was apparently why aforementioned lithium prices 'crashed'
 
jpaul said:
which of the ev's currently share a chassis & production line with ICE to be able to swap resources (can compete for same ship though) - maybe paint shop shared ?

Chinese ev's pressumably have quick availibility (shipping time excluded) with their suffering domestic market, which was apparently why aforementioned lithium prices 'crashed'
Click to expand...
All the Stellantis group EVs. Mokka, 2008, Corsa, 206, Fiat 600, Jeep Avenger, C4. DS4 I think does too.
 
lordrobs said:
Most businesses don't get to lose cash for 10 years straight (at a rate of up to $2Bn a year at it's peak) before turning a profit.

There was also 8 years of loss making from the launch of it's mainstream product (Model S) to it becoming profitable.

Don't get me wrong, the guy is a hell of a salesman to keep the money coming in for that long but let's not make out that the path they took is one that most businesses would have the opportunity to follow.
Click to expand...
Most businesses aren’t as capital intensive as an automotive manufacturer. Which is why it’s extremely hard to actually start up a new car manufacturer in the west.

Tesla isn’t unique in that regard and it’s big risk, big reward territory.

They’d probably have spent a similar amount of cash building a new ICE manufacturer from scratch without just buying in IP from others. If you are just buying in IP from others, you are never going to be able to compete.

I can’t see many of the other western start ups pulling it off unless they are bringing something truly unique to the table. Even the Bezos and Saudi ‘infinite money’ pot will be switched off for Rivian and Lucid eventually.

The Aptera is unique but they are really up against it at the moment.

Fisker is probably going to go in the next few months.
 
Last edited:
b0rn2sk8 said:
Most businesses aren’t as capital intensive as an automotive manufacturer. Which is why it’s extremely hard to actually start up a new car manufacturer in the west.

Tesla isn’t unique in that regard and it’s big risk, big reward territory.

They’d probably have spent a similar amount of cash building a new ICE manufacturer from scratch without just buying in IP from others. If you are just buying in IP from others, you are never going to be able to compete.

I can’t see many of the other western start ups pulling it off unless they are bringing something truly unique to the table. Even the Bezos and Saudi ‘infinite money’ pot will be switched off for Rivian and Lucid eventually.

The Aptera is unique but they are really up against it at the moment.

Fisker is probably going to go in the next few months.
Click to expand...
Agree totally with everything you've said there.

I think Tesla will be the last new mainstream manufacturer we see in the west. It's path to success is a unique one with a unique person at the forefront who somehow has managed to marmite his way to influencing the right people to dig deep into their pockets. As I say, fair play to the guy for that.

I think it's fair to say that Fisker is gone. Aptera, I can't see enough people willing to buy into it. Lucid, never going to scale up. Rivian... maybe. They've got a fighting chance at least but I can see the US big players dropping products that will push them into the sidelines.

That leaves the established auto makers who are now putting out solid EV offerings and whatever comes over from the east. I think BYD will do well, anything under the Geely and SAIC umbrellas likewise. Xiaomi... who knows. With the sums they are talking about investing I don't think it is going to be enough to gain traction and I can see them doing an Apple when it comes to the automotive sector.
 
lordrobs said:
I was thinking more along the lines of over supply. So lets say that brand X currently sells 1 EV for every 6 ICE vehicles but next year but now needs to make that 1 for every 4.5 vehicles (or 2 for ever 9 to keep the number whole) how much are they going to have to discount those EVs by to shift the extra stock? Then the big question, how much meat is left in that sale in terms of profit to the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Oh I agree but my point was atm the profit margin is obscene so if they have to massively cut the price then they will still have a better profit than what they were getting on their ICE cars unless it gets really bad
 
Scougar said:
It's ok, i can take it when I'm wrong. Thanks for the info. I still don't fawn over electric cars like they are savior, but it's not as bad on the production side as I had thought.
Click to expand...
Oh I don't expect to convert anyone or anything like that :) I'm just a fan of BEVs and there's a few stats that can help disprove some common misconceptions. I also recognise they aren't going to fit all use cases, and the transition/practicalities of owning a BEV is more difficult for some, even if their overall use case fits a BEV perfectly.

On the saviour point, I'm not sure there's much else we can look to so I think for most people it will be a reluctant acceptance that personal transport won't quite be as thought/planning-free as it is with an ICE vehicle: hydrogen fuel cell cars will require something like three times the amount of electricity for the whole process when you measure "well to wheel" efficiencies, not to mention how much of a faff it is; synthetic fuels massively reduce oil usage but also require large amounts of electricity, not to mention all the same pitfalls as fuel currently - storage, transport, combustion resulting in emissions. To me, at least, it just seems BEVs are actually the most sensible and least wasteful option going forward.
 
[TW]Fox said:
There won't be a choice. You are going to have to have one, regardless of whether it fits the intended purpose or not.
Click to expand...
I know, hence the paragraph after the quote :p the quote was more a framed around the situation as it is today; I'm sure battery and infrastructure improvements will make it easier for all in the future.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom