EV general discussion

satchef1 said:
So... if the entire UK car fleet moved to EV, there would potentially be a vast reduction in the number of caravans?

I'm surprised Clarkson isn't singing their praises :p
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I'm waiting for some amazingly expensive luxury caravan to appear that has a Li-ion battery pack out of a car fitted to it, allowing it to be self powered or even draw power from your car if needs be, or the other way round. :D

Can you imagine, a van with a flexi solar roof, and inverter, and a large pack, actually using a caravan might then be bearable as you wouldn't need a hook up. They could fit a compact heat pump to it for heating and aircon it would be great.
 
Journey said:
I'm waiting for some amazingly expensive luxury caravan to appear that has a Li-ion battery pack out of a car fitted to it, allowing it to be self powered or even draw power from your car if needs be, or the other way round. :D

Can you imagine, a van with a flexi solar roof, and inverter, and a large pack, actually using a caravan might then be bearable as you wouldn't need a hook up. They could fit a compact heat pump to it for heating and aircon it would be great.
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Nissan Spain do an eNV200 campervan.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
While I don’t disagree towing causes a huge increase in consumption the link you provided doesn’t back up the 2/3 assertion at all, the link says it’s 50%.

You need to remember those numbers will be using the old Model X and not the new ‘raven’ version with more range.

Does anyone know how big a problem is actually is? Are there any stats on the number of people that actually tow regularly?

I don’t mean people who tow a caravan twice a year, I mean those that do it regularly e.g more than once a month tow a significant distance say over 75 miles.
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Well I've towed to Scotland a fair few times, 600 mile round trip. I can do it without stopping on the way too.Can't see that being too feasible with an EV, especially as my 'van weighs 1500KG plus.
Roughly 80000 caravans are sold a year across Europe, a fair few of those are on the road a lot.
 
technically why is the Tesla range loss with caravan large with respect to a ICE car, it sounds greater than a difference of aerodynamic drag alone would explain ,
is it the different torque characteristics of the EV at higher rpm so its taking more additional energy than a ICE would;
maybe the tesla Y will be less impacted with a larger aerodynamic footprint .. needs a roof level cowling maybe, like lorries have for the trailer.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
While I don’t disagree towing causes a huge increase in consumption the link you provided doesn’t back up the 2/3 assertion at all, the link says it’s 50%.

You need to remember those numbers will be using the old Model X and not the new ‘raven’ version with more range.

Does anyone know how big a problem is actually is? Are there any stats on the number of people that actually tow regularly?

I don’t mean people who tow a caravan twice a year, I mean those that do it regularly e.g more than once a month tow a significant distance say over 75 miles.
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Check the numbers in the graph vs range rather than just the article. The article is averaging (or being optimistic). The 100D has a range of 295 miles, and with the caravans it goes down to 109-112 miles, ~37%.

That’s not going to change with the Raven update. All you’ll do is end up with a bit more range, because you started with more range, hence my point about larger batteries to begin with.

The “how big a problem is it” question is about as relevant as using average yearly miles to calculate range requirements. In Europe it’s probably relatively small, in North America it’s a lot more. Either way you either tow or you don’t. If you don’t then how good a BEV is at towing is irrelevant, if you do then it’ll depend on your usage patterns. The fact of the matter is current BEVs are ok at towing short distances, but if you’re looking to tow longer distances then stick with an ICEV or PHEV for the time being.

The solution is simple, and unlikely to be an issue in future - more batteries. 200-300kWh will probably become fairly standard in vehicles designed to tow.


It’ll be interesting to see how good Tesla’s truck will be at towing. Most certainly the first thing people will do when it’s available will be to stick a 30ft 5th wheel/caravan on the back (assuming it has the payload) and see how far it’ll go. I’m guessing with those kind of trailers it’ll lose in the region of 75% of its range, assuming the truck has a design prioritizing aerodynamics. If Tesla offer a 200kWh, 500 mile version then that’ll still be reasonable for most people (150miles of range), but it won’t be cheap!
 
Journey said:
I'm waiting for some amazingly expensive luxury caravan to appear that has a Li-ion battery pack out of a car fitted to it, allowing it to be self powered or even draw power from your car if needs be, or the other way round. :D

Can you imagine, a van with a flexi solar roof, and inverter, and a large pack, actually using a caravan might then be bearable as you wouldn't need a hook up. They could fit a compact heat pump to it for heating and aircon it would be great.
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No need to imagine. People already have that. Just depends if you’re willing to pay for it.

Lithium is a lot lighter than Lead acid so you can get 4-5x the capacity without any weight penalty. There are plenty of people with 10kWh battery packs and 400+W solar installs on their caravans/Campers.

The issue is the price. Current batteries available to the public aren’t cheap. I paid about £700 for my 1.2kWh battery. If you want to build your own from Chinese cells then it does get cheaper, although you need to know what you’re doing.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
While I don’t disagree towing causes a huge increase in consumption the link you provided doesn’t back up the 2/3 assertion at all, the link says it’s 50%.
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It happens when towing a large load and include steep hills and mountain passes in the worst cases. What we are saying though in reality is that compared to an ICE vehicle EVs will lose more range relative to their maximum due to the small energy reserve they have. Of course an ICE vehicle will lose range but they have a much bigger energy supply on board even though it's used less efficiently. I'm hardly going to diss Tesla when I own one :)

TfL did some tests and struggled in the US because of the minimum speeds required on inter-states i.e. 70 mph and the distances between charging stations plus they towed the maximum weight. I did'nt personally like the way they did the test because really they could have tested a more and it would have been obvious that they would have struggled. However your dealing with the general public and people will buy an EV hitch a trailer with little or no preparation and expect it to work like their ICE truck for example. Plus of course they are a YT channel and they have to get views so if it just worked the video would be less controversial and more likely to attract dislikes from traditional ICE owners

Looking at some of the info for the upcoming utility style EVs coming out then 100-125 kwh packs will be very common if not the entry level.
 
jpaul said:
technically why is the Tesla range loss with caravan large with respect to a ICE car, it sounds greater than a difference of aerodynamic drag alone would explain ,
is it the different torque characteristics of the EV at higher rpm so its taking more additional energy than a ICE would;
maybe the tesla Y will be less impacted with a larger aerodynamic footprint .. needs a roof level cowling maybe, like lorries have for the trailer.
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Lack of a gearbox is probably a big reason.

If you could fit a gearbox to an EV it would likely solve it. But then you lose some energy/range driving the gearbox :p
 
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EV have gearbox’s typically something between 6-10 ratio so the transmission losses are there already, more so if they have opted for a park lock/pawl.

What you mean is a multi speed gearbox, like the Taycan, this also pays dividends in the amount of regen you can recover. It’s a fair point although towing speeds probably don’t extract as much of a benefit as the multispeed approach for autobahn efficiency improvement.
 
bimbleuk said:
It happens when towing a large load and include steep hills and mountain passes in the worst cases. What we are saying though in reality is that compared to an ICE vehicle EVs will lose more range relative to their maximum due to the small energy reserve they have. Of course an ICE vehicle will lose range but they have a much bigger energy supply on board even though it's used less efficiently. I'm hardly going to diss Tesla when I own one :)

TfL did some tests and struggled in the US because of the minimum speeds required on inter-states i.e. 70 mph and the distances between charging stations plus they towed the maximum weight. I did'nt personally like the way they did the test because really they could have tested a more and it would have been obvious that they would have struggled. However your dealing with the general public and people will buy an EV hitch a trailer with little or no preparation and expect it to work like their ICE truck for example. Plus of course they are a YT channel and they have to get views so if it just worked the video would be less controversial and more likely to attract dislikes from traditional ICE owners

Looking at some of the info for the upcoming utility style EVs coming out then 100-125 kwh packs will be very common if not the entry level.
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TFL have done at least two trailer tests.

The Ike Gauntlet is the one you're talking about. That's a standard test they do with lots of vehicles, including almost every pickup in the last few years.

The other one they've done recently is the off road trailer trip. That, while not a standard test, is a standard trailer they use behind several vehicles. The aim there was to see how an EV pickup may handle a standard off road trailer.

I think a lot of the problem is Tesla enthusiasts only watch those episodes with the X and don't have any history with the channel, or understand what the channel is about. Too many of them are used to channels that start with "I have a BEV, how can I do this trip with it?", whereas TFL is more about "How does this compare to the next vehicle".

For the general public the latter is far more a realistic proposition as you say, but it riles up people that are potentially willing to make large sacrifices to be in a BEV.

Equally, its worth remembering that conversely to your last point, a lot of the Tesla youtube channels are there in part to spread their affiliate links. No need to annoy your fans that may use it and give you free stuff from Tesla.
 
Amp34 said:
Equally, its worth remembering that conversely to your last point, a lot of the Tesla youtube channels are there in part to spread their affiliate links. No need to annoy your fans that may use it and give you free stuff from Tesla.
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Good point about the Tesla links as I heard some Yutubers are basically getting free cars, Tesla battery walls (they may have stopped that one) and limitless charging as a result of their affiliate links. I think Bjorn has so many credits saved up he's now trading them for out of warranty work on his small fleet of Tesla especially the 200K+ km Model X. TFL being a more general channel may put less emphasis on that but if it's a standard test they do then it's only fair to test an EV, admittedly I watch less of their ICE related content. So I'll be keen to see how big a battery pack they do need to do some of theirs tests.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Try Two, as did a load of others.

That said this has been long ended by Tesla.
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As well as his signature edition Model X, a P100D Model S, I’m sure there were others!

It isn’t quite as good as it sounds though as he’s taxed on those cars as earnings. He seems to sell every other one to fund the tax bill on a keeper.

Fair play to him though he works hard on his videos. When he first got his Model S he was driving across Europe before there was a supercharger network.
 
Matthew.M said:
As well as his signature edition Model X, a P100D Model S, I’m sure there were others!

It isn’t quite as good as it sounds though as he’s taxed on those cars as earnings. He seems to sell every other one to fund the tax bill on a keeper.

Fair play to him though he works hard on his videos. When he first got his Model S he was driving across Europe before there was a supercharger network.
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I'm sure more than anyone he sold me the decision to get a Model 3 though I didn't use his affiliate link as I thought he'd had plenty by then!
 
I had to visit the council offices this morning and took the opportunity to ask them about their timetable for installing chargers for people with EVs (closest one to me is at a Pinkstones Toyota dealership about 3/4 mile away) and the answer I received was "Are you having a laugh?".
 
Outside of a bit of OLEV funding I don't think anyone really expected councils to be funding EV chargers, that was always going to be up to private companies to own and install. Councils just hold the keys for 3rd parties to install them (e.g. planning and permits).
 
Malevolence said:
I had to visit the council offices this morning and took the opportunity to ask them about their timetable for installing chargers for people with EVs (closest one to me is at a Pinkstones Toyota dealership about 3/4 mile away) and the answer I received was "Are you having a laugh?".
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Did the council install all the petrol stations in your area?
 
The council installed a few in my area. They are free atm, usually hogged by local taxi drivers who decided to buy EVs (they probably need to do something about that). But I doubt they will stay free forever. I bet they all get flogged off to the highest bidder at some point and they stick meters on them.
 
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