EV general discussion

[Greebo]

I'm guessing that if Sunak pushes the ban back to 2035 that's going to annoy a few manufacturers.

indeed and I doubt it will change very much. Most manufacturers have already planned for no ICE by 2030, some I believe, are doing it sooner like Volvo are phasing out hybrids from 2025. Just because our current govt has done a flip, i think they will find there will still be very little choice of ICE cars come 2030.

 

[Greebo]

e-3008 boot looks great, like 408 x-over , but no ev version of that though;
interesting stuff on the nio tourer - separate battery leasing https://youtu.be/rcf17eD8aUE?t=389

[
driving-dynamics/ Sport's car EV market yet to develop outside of esoteric Porsche? - the plethora of ICE cars in that lucrative segment for the young male market is going to be duplicated somehow;
Golf I-gti seems to be in the works, and that renault 5 lookalike, new mini electric maybe.
]

MG cyberster?

 

[adam cool dude]

indeed and I doubt it will change very much. Most manufacturers have already planned for no ICE by 2030, some I believe, are doing it sooner like Volvo are phasing out hybrids from 2025. Just because our current govt has done a flip, i think they will find there will still be very little choice of ICE cars come 2030.

Toyota, Vag the two biggest companies are still very much commited to ICE as is pretty much all the commercial industry. It is only the smaller companies and the Chinese that are commited to EV's and when the west cotton on to the fact the Chinese will take over their motor industry they will all quickly backtrack.

 

[Dis86]

Toyota, Vag the two biggest companies are still very much commited to ICE as is pretty much all the commercial industry. It is only the smaller companies and the Chinese that are commited to EV's and when the west cotton on to the fact the Chinese will take over their motor industry they will all quickly backtrack.

The next m3 is due to be all electric. Are bmw a small company?

 

[413x]

Toyota, Vag the two biggest companies are still very much commited to ICE as is pretty much all the commercial industry. It is only the smaller companies and the Chinese that are commited to EV's and when the west cotton on to the fact the Chinese will take over their motor industry they will all quickly backtrack.

Yeah. So many Chinese EVs.
Very much the most likely car I'll end up with as some are super cheap.

Newest car I've ever owned is 2008. So it's not like I'm used to fancy new car stuff.

 

[Uther]

I dare say I'll get an EV sooner than 2030, but if they push the ban to 2035 I'll be 70 and probably won't care much.
Can only imagine how much better EV's will be by then.

 

[Minstadave]

Just getting the MOT done on my iPace before it goes back at the end of the month. Onto the "Q8" Etron for the next 3 years, seems blander than bland but it's an OK deal so will see what that's like, spec seems a bit better than the iPace for the vanilla lease version (heated seats/matrix LEDs).

 

[Greebo]

Had a "q8" etron for a few weeks while my x5 45e was getting repaired. Bland is the right word! Nice place to be sat but (this was the base car) numb performance and dull handling. And like all audis, it gave me back ache in the time I owned it. Not sure why, but I can never get confortable in an Audi.

 

[Minstadave]

Had a "q8" etron for a few weeks while my x5 45e was getting repaired. Bland is the right word! Nice place to be sat but (this was the base car) numb performance and dull handling. And like all audis, it gave me back ache in the time I owned it. Not sure why, but I can never get confortable in an Audi.

Yeah it was a tough one, the only things they had that were reasonable value were:

- Etrons Q8 and Q4
- iPace (too small really)
- Merc EQC or EQB (not sure why but these didn't do it for me)
- BMW iX (just the most goddamn ugly car I've ever seen but probably the best car overall)

 

[Freefaller]

Replacing a battery is expensive, and by the time comes that you would actually need to change it it's likely it could be many times the value of the car by that point (it'll be way over 15 years old). I can't imagine it would ever be the same as buying another (new) car though.

I'm not sure what the "something better" than EV will be though. Hydrogen is an absolute no-go. Technically possible, sure, but the process from start of generation to actually putting power to the wheels (the so-called "well-to-wheel" cost) is just over 3x the electricity requirement than an EV has. For every unit of electricity you initially generate, EVs will put 76% of it to the wheels; hydrogen cars only get to 22%. Even with expected improvements in electrolysis that final value will likely not ever exceed 30%. The processes needed for storage and transportation of H2 introduce heavy losses. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will be even less efficient in a climate like ours - the fuel cell itself needs to maintain a temperature (15C or above, IIRC) so for almost every single day in the UK, the fuel cell will actually need to be running and using H2 to keep itself alive. Imagine having a petrol car that has a small leak, always! All of this is even before considering how dirty the production of hydrogen is, even with carbon capture. If we ever reach the utopia of green hydrogen, we will still have tripled the energy requirement for personal transport just so you can fill the car in 10 minutes rather than 30 minutes. That is a very, very stupid path to walk down.

Electro/synthetic fuels have a well-to-wheel efficiency of around 13%, because combustion engines have an efficiency of around 30%. So even if you could get electro fuel generation efficiency to 75% or greater (it's currently at around 45%), you'd still be throwing away 70% of that as heat/noise. Why? Why would we go down this path?


I really don't see what alternative you're expecting to come along. I think the quicker people accept that personal transport will be slightly less convenient in the future than it is now, the better.

No idea what the alternative is - was just cogitating out loud.

I wonder if synthetic fuels (artificial fuel) could be a good stop gap. Expensive, but it'll get cheaper over time.

If everyone goes electric by 2030 am I right to believe that we don't have enough charging points? Or is that a lie?

I mean I have solar panels so for me an EV can genuinely be a great "green" option (with a bit of greenwashing of course, mining, and bringing all the materials to make the batteries).

I think I'd rather use the train for long distance than drive anyway and generally do.

Replacing the battery is more expensive than replacing an engine from a main stealer. But they come with pretty comprehensive 7/8 year warranties usually 100k or more miles. No engines in a car comes with that as far as I am aware.

Who goes to a main dealer to replace an engine out of warranty? Literally no one.

The main issue is that there just isn’t a load of spare batteries from scrapped cars on the market because just a few years ago they made up <5% sales. Fast forward 15 years and they’ll be hundreds/thousands of them stacked up at breakers ready to go to whack into otherwise working cars just as there is a ready supply of used ICE engines.

That said even though there is a good supply of used ICE engines to transplant, very few actually do it because of the labour costs and cars with engines that have had a significant failure are usually scrapped. That’s the beauty of the battery, you can swap them in most cars in a few hours if you know what you are doing.

EV insurance is more expensive, people aren’t used to the power and keep crashing them. Likewise the network of repairers is much smaller because they aren’t trained on the high voltage components. Tesla is particularly expensive to insure, they are group 50 cars.

Thanks for the info and taking the time to reply really interesting,.

I guess the insurance thing depends on how you compare it.

If you compare it as a bog standard family hatchback EV vs a bog standard family hatchback ICE, then yes the EV is probably going to be more expensive to insure (as the car itself is probably about £5-10k more expensive)
Compare it to an ICE of similar price, or with similar acceleration and power and it's nowhere near as clear

As for battery replacement, it depends on the car, but in the rare event that the whole battery needs replacing then yes, you're potentially looking at a bill of £10-20k, however there are already companies popping up who can replace individual modules, or even cells.

I guess you just have to change car. How long does an EV last at 100% battery capacity?

Are batteries easily recycled and repurposed now?

 

[adam cool dude]

The next m3 is due to be all electric. Are bmw a small company?

Yes absolutely tiny compared to Toyota and VAG. They outsell BMW 5-1 and their revenue is almost double. They both do commercial too. BMW do not. You are looking at the UK as if it is an indicator of the global market which couldn't be any further from the truth.

 

[413x]

Replacing the battery is more expensive than replacing an engine from a main stealer. But they come with pretty comprehensive 7/8 year warranties usually 100k or more miles. No engines in a car comes with that as far as I am aware.

Who goes to a main dealer to replace an engine out of warranty? Literally no one.

The main issue is that there just isn’t a load of spare batteries from scrapped cars on the market because just a few years ago they made up <5% sales. Fast forward 15 years and they’ll be hundreds/thousands of them stacked up at breakers ready to go to whack into otherwise working cars just as there is a ready supply of used ICE engines.

That said even though there is a good supply of used ICE engines to transplant, very few actually do it because of the labour costs and cars with engines that have had a significant failure are usually scrapped. That’s the beauty of the battery, you can swap them in most cars in a few hours if you know what you are doing.

EV insurance is more expensive, people aren’t used to the power and keep crashing them. Likewise the network of repairers is much smaller because they aren’t trained on the high voltage components. Tesla is particularly expensive to insure, they are group 50 cars.

This is a good point.
If the Peugeot got to the point of needing a new engine, it'd be scrapped.
The whole car is too old to be throwing that much money at it. If EV batteries are hitting 15 years for replacement it will also probably be a moot point.

 

[Dis86]

Yes absolutely tiny compared to Toyota and VAG. They outsell BMW 5-1 and their revenue is almost double. They both do commercial too. BMW do not. You are looking at the UK as if it is an indicator of the global market which couldn't be any further from the truth.

Lmao. Half the revenue of toyota or vag does not make one a small company. Its an absolutely massive company.

 

[Fr0dders]

I'm guessing that if Sunak pushes the ban back to 2035 that's going to annoy a few manufacturers.

That's exactly what Sky News are leading with right now

'We're not going to save the planet by bankrupting Britons,' says Braverman - as car makers hit out at government

I have a fair few issues with the way this story is being reported. There has been lots of talk as to whether public charging infrastructure would actually be ready for an EV only future. There were lots of unanswered questions, or questions with answers but work to do. Even as somebody with an EV Currently on order, I had doubts as to whether this target was sensible or not.

Of course we know why the car makers are annoyed. The current western capitalist view of climate change is that it's all caused by us the consumer. It's our responsibility to solve climate change, and you do that by buying nice new electric cars at higher prices that previous ICE cars. It's the jones family and their 1.5 litre diesel Nissan Juke that's causing global warming.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

UK is very small to be fair.

 

[jpaul]

Maybe Rishi's 2035 slip is effectively doing a deal for the sake of UK manufacturers Nissan and JLR , so they can continue selling on the home market and exporting,
whilst we get domestic&european battery production up and running to be able to produce relatively cheaper electric cars.

Replacing a battery is expensive, and by the time comes that you would actually need to change it it's likely it could be many times the value of the car by that point (it'll be way over 15 years old). I can't imagine it would ever be the same as buying another (new) car though.

with the Nio ev idea, the labour&speed for a battery swap is negligible, even if the battery cost isn't, does seem that could give you access to future battery technologies too,
whether adding that easy-change facility in the car design adds a great deal of cost though. in the EU now ->

interesting stuff on the nio tourer - separate battery leasing https://youtu.be/rcf17eD8aUE?t=389

 

[Nasher]

Pushing back the date was always going to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if they push it back to the original date which was 2040. We are never going to make it for 2030.

Same will happen with gas boilers. Hardly anyone is buying heatpumps because they are way to expensive. It's DOA.

 

[adam cool dude]

Lmao. Half the revenue of toyota or vag does not make one a small company. Its an absolutely massive company.

BMW is a small company in relative terms yes.

Their revenue is around the same as Mitsubishi and they are non existent in the UK.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

No idea what the alternative is - was just cogitating out loud.

I wonder if synthetic fuels (artificial fuel) could be a good stop gap. Expensive, but it'll get cheaper over time.

There are literally people starving because of failed crops. Giving up millions of hectares of land to grow bio fuel is not a great idea really. I go get not all synthetic fuel is biofuel but that’s by fast the easiest and cheapest version.

It also doesn’t deal with the issue of local emissions.

If everyone goes electric by 2030 am I right to believe that we don't have enough charging points? Or is that a lie?

Lie.

We are not all going electric in 2030. It’s only new car sales and the 2030 ban is also a lie, you can still buy a PHEV (which is just an ICE car if you don’t charge it) until 2035. Ice cars will still be around in 2050 as those sold in 2035 come to end of life.

The roll out of charge points is keeping pace with car sales, that’s all that matters. There are localised issues with shortages but for the most part it’s fine.

I’ve never ever waited at a rapid charger or never not been able to charge, that is the experience of the vast majority of owners.

I guess you just have to change car. How long does an EV last at 100% battery capacity?

How far do you drive without a break?

250+ miles is over 3 hours, usually 4 hours driving in the U.K. I’ll need a toilet break before the car runs out of charge and mine only has a ~220 mile real world range.

It takes 10 mins to add another 100 miles, by this point you’ve traveled from the south coast to Scotland.

Are batteries easily recycled and repurposed now?

Yes, facilities exist but they suffer from a lack of batteries to actually recycle from cars.

They mostly just process batteries from consumer electronics at the moment because there isn’t any volume of batteries from cars getting to end of life and won’t be for some time.

 

[bloodiedathame]

We're in year 5 of owning our Nissan Leaf 24kWh. It's still showing good range and only lost one 'bar' a few years ago.

Interestingly, we're getting a V2H (Vehicle 2 Home) system fitted soon which works bidirectionally, allowing the house to draw 6kW from the car. Might wear out the battery a bit more quickly but I'm looking forward to lower leccy bills.