EV general discussion

When I first saw the Toyota patent for a fake manual gear box for an EV, my initial response was ‘why?’.

I enjoy driving a quick car as the next person and I was always a ‘manual till I die’ guy.

I had a total mindset change after I hired a car with a reasonable auto box and covered a few thousand miles in it.

Got back in my manual and just thought ‘yeh I get it now’ in that a an automatic is just better for 99% of driving. I’m more than happy to give up that 1% for the better 99%.

Perhaps I’m just getting old but if you want to drive in a way in which using a manual gear box is ‘fun’, it’s generally not acceptable on a public road anymore and it’s best constrained to track days.

Back to the whole fake manual thing, I just don’t get it. Normal people won’t want or use it and those that do will get bored after 5 mins. The die hards like those in this thread will think it’s a pile of turds.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
When I first saw the Toyota patent for a fake manual gear box for an EV, my initial response was ‘why?’.

I enjoy driving a quick car as the next person and I was always a ‘manual till I die’ guy.

I had a total mindset change after I hired a car with a reasonable auto box and covered a few thousand miles in it.

Got back in my manual and just thought ‘yeh I get it now’ in that a an automatic is just better for 99% of driving. I’m more than happy to give up that 1% for the better 99%.

Perhaps I’m just getting old but if you want to drive in a way in which using a manual gear box is ‘fun’, it’s generally not acceptable on a public road anymore and it’s best constrained to track days.

Back to the whole fake manual thing, I just don’t get it. Normal people won’t want or use it and those that do will get bored after 5 mins. The die hards like those in this thread will think it’s a pile of turds.
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We are both alike in that i think.

take me back 8 years when i was drving my 350z and if you had told me in 2023 i would own an automatic and not miss manual at all i would have laughed at you.

now however i dont miss it at all... indeed i drove my wifes car over the weekend just to keep my hand in (i do not want to get like my father in law who now when he drives a manual looks like a learner on their 1st lesson! ) and i just wanted to be back in my car again with 1 pedal driving combined with adaptive cruise.

(any my car doesnt even have all the driver aids some modern cars have)

what i really pine for nowadays is a car which will allow me to watch tv when on the motorway or play videogames.

or even better yet one to take me too and pick me up from the pub, and let me go full Michael Knight and radio the car to come get me!. ;)
 
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Anyone else seen the new Peugot e3008?

It's going to have a long range version with over 400miles WLTP. So maybe 340-350 real world range. Not a good looking or exciting car but damn what a range. It does look better than the current patrol version as its got a fast back rear instead of looking like a box.

Hopefully more cars start getting LR like that.
 
steve5424 said:
Anyone else seen the new Peugot e3008?

It's going to have a long range version with over 400miles WLTP. So maybe 340-350 real world range. Not a good looking or exciting car but damn what a range. It does look better than the current patrol version as its got a fast back rear instead of looking like a box.

Hopefully more cars start getting LR like that.
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excellent, i was waiting for an e3008 but gave up in the end.... also i dont buy new cars so am still at least 2 years from realistically looking at one from launch.

it is good tho because i like the e208 and e2008 but they just were not big enough or with enough range for our main car (i still have my eye on an e208 however to replace our 2011 pug 308)
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
The die hards like those in this thread will think it’s a pile of turds.
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Possibly :D Though I am quite accommodating, I am one of the few that liked the idea behind Abarths sound generator, for me it did add to the experience, shame it was too damn slow past 60 and did not have something to bring the sound down on torque demand etc, like an engine with gears and not under load.

Right sort of size and weight for a daily car too IMO, obviously lighter would be better but battery tech is not there yet.

b0rn2sk8 said:
Back to the whole fake manual thing, I just don’t get it. Normal people won’t want or use it and those that do will get bored after 5 mins. The die hards like those in this thread will think it’s a pile of turds.
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Just like all those cars that can hit 60 in 4s now, really who does that daily, fun for a bit but most of the time not how it is driven but it is there when the feeling takes you, I see the fake manual in same way, just because it is there, I don't need to use it.

It's fair to say there are days I wish I could push a button and turn my car auto, stop start in Bristol traffic is a chore with a manual.
 
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e-3008 boot looks great, like 408 x-over , but no ev version of that though;
interesting stuff on the nio tourer - separate battery leasing https://youtu.be/rcf17eD8aUE?t=389

[
driving-dynamics/ Sport's car EV market yet to develop outside of esoteric Porsche? - the plethora of ICE cars in that lucrative segment for the young male market is going to be duplicated somehow;
Golf I-gti seems to be in the works, and that renault 5 lookalike, new mini electric maybe.
]
 
jpaul said:
e-3008 boot looks great, like 408 x-over , but no ev version of that though;
interesting stuff on the nio tourer - separate battery leasing https://youtu.be/rcf17eD8aUE?t=389

[
driving-dynamics/ Sport's car EV market yet to develop outside of esoteric Porsche? - the plethora of ICE cars in that lucrative segment for the young male market is going to be duplicated somehow;
Golf I-gti seems to be in the works, and that renault 5 lookalike, new mini electric maybe.
]
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Abarth 500 probably covers that spot a bit.
 
steve5424 said:
Anyone else seen the new Peugot e3008?

It's going to have a long range version with over 400miles WLTP. So maybe 340-350 real world range. Not a good looking or exciting car but damn what a range. It does look better than the current patrol version as its got a fast back rear instead of looking like a box.

Hopefully more cars start getting LR like that.
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I think it looks great! :D

I really really think tesla are ugly. The most boring looking design.
I much prefer the ioniq and the Peugeots with thier more exciting looks.
 
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It certainly looks interesting. It’s probably the first car where the standard range version will be the best seller. 325 miles WLTP usually translates into a solid 250 miles real world.

The long range version will be interesting to those that tow. A near 100kwh battery in something that doesn’t chunder electrons could make a decent tow vehicle.

I think a fair criticism is it’s a little down on power compared its competitors and it’s peak charging speed looks a bit sub par for 2023. Also it’s front wheel drive for the single motor version.

For me, the drivers seat looks a bit cramped and very busy but I do actually like the minimalist Tesla interior.
 
Simon said:
Its nice to have both indeed :)
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Yes I think for me that would be the best of both. I wouldn't mind experiencing long term EV use but still have an ICE car.

Not sure if it's conspiracy theories or whatnot but heard on the radio that ev insurance is generally higher, but also replacing a battery of an EV is as expensive as buying another car?. Not sure how much of that is true. I won't get into the debate about mining etc... as that's quite a heated debate it seems!! I think EVs are a good stepping stone to something better. I do however think that the 2030 ban on ICE is myopic.

Personally I love the straight line performance of an EV it's hard to ignore. My friend has one of those MGs and it looks crap and boring but my god does it shift!
 
Freefaller said:
Yes I think for me that would be the best of both. I wouldn't mind experiencing long term EV use but still have an ICE car.

Not sure if it's conspiracy theories or whatnot but heard on the radio that ev insurance is generally higher, but also replacing a battery of an EV is as expensive as buying another car?. Not sure how much of that is true. I won't get into the debate about mining etc... as that's quite a heated debate it seems!! I think EVs are a good stepping stone to something better. I do however think that the 2030 ban on ICE is myopic.

Personally I love the straight line performance of an EV it's hard to ignore. My friend has one of those MGs and it looks crap and boring but my god does it shift!
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Replacing a battery is expensive, and by the time comes that you would actually need to change it it's likely it could be many times the value of the car by that point (it'll be way over 15 years old). I can't imagine it would ever be the same as buying another (new) car though.

I'm not sure what the "something better" than EV will be though. Hydrogen is an absolute no-go. Technically possible, sure, but the process from start of generation to actually putting power to the wheels (the so-called "well-to-wheel" cost) is just over 3x the electricity requirement than an EV has. For every unit of electricity you initially generate, EVs will put 76% of it to the wheels; hydrogen cars only get to 22%. Even with expected improvements in electrolysis that final value will likely not ever exceed 30%. The processes needed for storage and transportation of H2 introduce heavy losses. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will be even less efficient in a climate like ours - the fuel cell itself needs to maintain a temperature (15C or above, IIRC) so for almost every single day in the UK, the fuel cell will actually need to be running and using H2 to keep itself alive. Imagine having a petrol car that has a small leak, always! All of this is even before considering how dirty the production of hydrogen is, even with carbon capture. If we ever reach the utopia of green hydrogen, we will still have tripled the energy requirement for personal transport just so you can fill the car in 10 minutes rather than 30 minutes. That is a very, very stupid path to walk down.

Electro/synthetic fuels have a well-to-wheel efficiency of around 13%, because combustion engines have an efficiency of around 30%. So even if you could get electro fuel generation efficiency to 75% or greater (it's currently at around 45%), you'd still be throwing away 70% of that as heat/noise. Why? Why would we go down this path?


I really don't see what alternative you're expecting to come along. I think the quicker people accept that personal transport will be slightly less convenient in the future than it is now, the better.
 
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Freefaller said:
Yes I think for me that would be the best of both. I wouldn't mind experiencing long term EV use but still have an ICE car.

Not sure if it's conspiracy theories or whatnot but heard on the radio that ev insurance is generally higher, but also replacing a battery of an EV is as expensive as buying another car?. Not sure how much of that is true. I won't get into the debate about mining etc... as that's quite a heated debate it seems!! I think EVs are a good stepping stone to something better. I do however think that the 2030 ban on ICE is myopic.

Personally I love the straight line performance of an EV it's hard to ignore. My friend has one of those MGs and it looks crap and boring but my god does it shift!
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Replacing the battery is more expensive than replacing an engine from a main stealer. But they come with pretty comprehensive 7/8 year warranties usually 100k or more miles. No engines in a car comes with that as far as I am aware.

Who goes to a main dealer to replace an engine out of warranty? Literally no one.

The main issue is that there just isn’t a load of spare batteries from scrapped cars on the market because just a few years ago they made up <5% sales. Fast forward 15 years and they’ll be hundreds/thousands of them stacked up at breakers ready to go to whack into otherwise working cars just as there is a ready supply of used ICE engines.

That said even though there is a good supply of used ICE engines to transplant, very few actually do it because of the labour costs and cars with engines that have had a significant failure are usually scrapped. That’s the beauty of the battery, you can swap them in most cars in a few hours if you know what you are doing.

EV insurance is more expensive, people aren’t used to the power and keep crashing them. Likewise the network of repairers is much smaller because they aren’t trained on the high voltage components. Tesla is particularly expensive to insure, they are group 50 cars.
 
bigmike20vt said:
We are both alike in that i think.

take me back 8 years when i was drving my 350z and if you had told me in 2023 i would own an automatic and not miss manual at all i would have laughed at you.

now however i dont miss it at all... indeed i drove my wifes car over the weekend just to keep my hand in (i do not want to get like my father in law who now when he drives a manual looks like a learner on their 1st lesson! ) and i just wanted to be back in my car again with 1 pedal driving combined with adaptive cruise.

(any my car doesnt even have all the driver aids some modern cars have)

what i really pine for nowadays is a car which will allow me to watch tv when on the motorway or play videogames.

or even better yet one to take me too and pick me up from the pub, and let me go full Michael Knight and radio the car to come get me!. ;)
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That is because what you have summed up really is that you are driving as a means to an end rather than actually enjoying the experience of driving. That could also be down to location and doing a lot of motorways but for myself at least the commute home has always been a time to enjoy the driving and unwind on the way home. In some cases I will even take a longer route back if it avoids traffic.
 
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adam cool dude said:
That is because what you have summed up really is that you are driving as a means to an end rather than actually enjoying the experience of driving. That could also be down to location and doing a lot of motorways but for myself at least the commute home has always been a time to enjoy the driving and unwind on the way home. In some cases I will even take a longer route back if it avoids traffic.
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Are you sure you're not trying to delay getting back to the wife and kids?

I do wonder if all these drivers enjoying spirited A-B "blasts " are the ones ending up on the dashcam thread:D
 
Freefaller said:
Not sure if it's conspiracy theories or whatnot but heard on the radio that ev insurance is generally higher, but also replacing a battery of an EV is as expensive as buying another car?. Not sure how much of that is true. I won't get into the debate about mining etc... as that's quite a heated debate it seems!! I think EVs are a good stepping stone to something better. I do however think that the 2030 ban on ICE is myopic.
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I guess the insurance thing depends on how you compare it.

If you compare it as a bog standard family hatchback EV vs a bog standard family hatchback ICE, then yes the EV is probably going to be more expensive to insure (as the car itself is probably about £5-10k more expensive)
Compare it to an ICE of similar price, or with similar acceleration and power and it's nowhere near as clear

As for battery replacement, it depends on the car, but in the rare event that the whole battery needs replacing then yes, you're potentially looking at a bill of £10-20k, however there are already companies popping up who can replace individual modules, or even cells.
 
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Sad to see the flip flop on EVs

Best way to push EV development is the 2030 initiative. It encourages EV mass production, which should bring costs down and drive innovation.

More evs the more usable used EVs.

I'm no where near buying an EV as second hand ones in my price range are naff. Only way is going to improve is more new evs
 
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