EV general discussion

[jpaul]

If they adopted NZ system - if their new (as green) leader keeps it, £1K/8000 miles. If that replace my £300ved , for the miles I've done post covid I'd be up.
keir doesn't seem to have pontificated on the matter, maybe revoke the 2035 though; new olive branch from the EU might, now, help maintain eu ev prices in 2024

& aforementioned 2nd hand corsa , is an eu design, not chinese, which with better parts availability (lower insurance?) might still be in its favour , but used id3 (without compromise of ice design) must be close in price,
even the ev-30 although supposedly next segment up is geely chassis, but with fancy clothes.
if it was my money id3 above ex-30.

 

[Haggisman]

you are certainly the exception to the norm here.

I doubt that tbh, anyone on a decent EV tariff doing 8k miles is going to be paying similar (~£10-20/month) unless they use a lot of public charging

7.5p/kw ÷ 3.9mi/kw = 1.92p/mile, £153 for 8k miles. Even accounting for 20% charging efficiency losses that's ~£15/month.

Obviously insurance is going to be a bit more variable, but even so, £55/month is likely going to add a significant percentage to EV running costs for the majority of people.

Maybe when they start to reach price parity with ICE it will be more palatable, but at the moment, the only reason the higher purchase price is justifiable (for me at least) is due to the much lower running costs - get rid of that benefit and I might as well go back to killing polar bears and toddlers in a 10 year old diesel; I sure as hell ain't relying on public transport

 

[Uther]

One day running an EV is going to cost the same or more as running an ICE, it has to, otherwise the government has no monies...

 

[adam cool dude]

I doubt that tbh, anyone on a decent EV tariff doing 8k miles is going to be paying similar (~£10-20/month) unless they use a lot of public charging

7.5p/kw ÷ 3.9mi/kw = 1.92p/mile, £153 for 8k miles. Even accounting for 20% charging efficiency losses that's ~£15/month.

Obviously insurance is going to be a bit more variable, but even so, £55/month is likely going to add a significant percentage to EV running costs for the majority of people.

Maybe when they start to reach price parity with ICE it will be more palatable, but at the moment, the only reason the higher purchase price is justifiable (for me at least) is due to the much lower running costs - get rid of that benefit and I might as well go back to killing polar bears and toddlers in a 10 year old diesel; I sure as hell ain't relying on public transport

The higher purchase price isn't palatable though when residuals are pants and cheaper ICE alternatives are worth the same or more after 18 months to two years. If you are planning to keep long term then that is different obviously but at the same time the tech is improving quickly so your new model will be obsolete quite quickly.

 

[Haggisman]

The higher purchase price isn't palatable though when residuals are pants and cheaper ICE alternatives are worth the same or more after 18 months to two years.

As I said, they only are because of the lower running costs - slap a load of VED on them to make the running cost the same as a similar ICE and nobody in their right mind is going spend £10-20k+ more on an EV

One day running an EV is going to cost the same or more as running an ICE, it has to, otherwise the government has no monies...

I absolutely agree, I just don't think now is the time - it's certainly heading in the right direction, but as above, the price premium for EVs is still too high

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I doubt that tbh, anyone on a decent EV tariff doing 8k miles is going to be paying similar (~£10-20/month) unless they use a lot of public charging

7.5p/kw ÷ 3.9mi/kw = 1.92p/mile, £153 for 8k miles. Even accounting for 20% charging efficiency losses that's ~£15/month.

Obviously insurance is going to be a bit more variable, but even so, £55/month is likely going to add a significant percentage to EV running costs for the majority of people.

Maybe when they start to reach price parity with ICE it will be more palatable, but at the moment, the only reason the higher purchase price is justifiable (for me at least) is due to the much lower running costs - get rid of that benefit and I might as well go back to killing polar bears and toddlers in a 10 year old diesel; I sure as hell ain't relying on public transport

Isn’t that the point though, once EVs become mainstream, the tax has to come from somewhere. At the moment an EV purchaser is paying an additional ~£1600 in VAT but that won’t be the case forever.

The comparison I was making was to the tax you’d pay when running an ICE car. That’s the reality of it and where most of the running cost savings come from.

 

[413x]

One day running an EV is going to cost the same or more as running an ICE, it has to, otherwise the government has no monies...

Its an tough task.

Poor people can't afford EVs but you need to deincentivise petrol.

I guess you need a "going forward" cost.
For ICE it's easy. Just keep whacking up the fuel tax. More you drive (ie pollute). More it hurts. But this hurts the poor especially if commuting most. But really incentivises EV if you can.

VED increase would have to be going forward, and probably is a good shout. You charge EVs a rate based on cost of the car, you then have this cost + a emissions tax on ICE.
This penalises new ICE heavily.

We are probably quite close to EVs being the default for new cars naturally anyway. Only hard core wealthy EV haters will pay the ICE premium.



As someone who would want an EV but doesn't want to spend much? How could I be forced to get rid of my old ICE?
Petrol wouldn't work as I don't do too many miles, but a retrospective VED would. But again, anything retrospective would screw the poorest. So i guess I can keep my banger!

 

[Haggisman]

The comparison I was making was to the tax you’d pay when running an ICE car. That’s the reality of it and where most of the running cost savings come from.

Not even close for most people surely?

Compared to my old Octavia, I save more in a month in fuel than I do in a year in VED.

Unless you're paying 50p+ using public chargers, the 2p/mile in electricity is significantly lower than the 12-13p/mile even the most efficient ICE costs?

 

[ICDP]

Its an tough task.

Poor people can't afford EVs but you need to deincentivise petrol.

I guess you need a "going forward" cost.
For ICE it's easy. Just keep whacking up the fuel tax. More you drive (ie pollute). More it hurts. But this hurts the poor especially if commuting most. But really incentivises EV if you can.

VED increase would have to be going forward, and probably is a good shout. You charge EVs a rate based on cost of the car, you then have this cost + a emissions tax on ICE.
This penalises new ICE heavily.

We are probably quite close to EVs being the default for new cars naturally anyway. Only hard core wealthy EV haters will pay the ICE premium.



As someone who would want an EV but doesn't want to spend much? How could I be forced to get rid of my old ICE?
Petrol wouldn't work as I don't do too many miles, but a retrospective VED would. But again, anything retrospective would screw the poorest. So i guess I can keep my banger!

I don’t mean this as an insult but very few people can mentally budget years in advance. So instead of seeing that a used EV may be an extra £3000 - £4000 (with charger) up front like for like, but will most likely save money in the long run. They just see a much higher entry cost for more hassle.

Money talks and right now EVs look poor value. Yet the Tory government have decided to remove incentives and instead are using EVs as a target in their “culture” wars. The move to EVs has been knocked back at least a decade IMHO.

 

[adam cool dude]

Not even close for most people surely?

Compared to my old Octavia, I save more in a month in fuel than I do in a year in VED.

Unless you're paying 50p+ using public chargers, the 2p/mile in electricity is significantly lower than the 12-13p/mile even the most efficient ICE costs?

Have you actually looked at residuals compared to like minded ICE cars? I think you will be in for shock. Yes you save money on fuel but it is all wiped out in depreciation.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Not even close for most people surely?

Compared to my old Octavia, I save more in a month in fuel than I do in a year in VED.

Unless you're paying 50p+ using public chargers, the 2p/mile in electricity is significantly lower than the 12-13p/mile even the most efficient ICE costs?

Of course it is, re-read my post, it’s entirely a comparison to the tax raised from ICE vehicles.

8k miles a year is ~£1200 on petrol at 50mpg, half of that is tax (fuel duty + VAT), times 32 million cars @ say £500, you raise £16 billion. The government will need to start recovering that at some point as the base of ICE vehicles reduces.

They are already taking steps by reintroducing VED and the expensive car supplement from 2025. From 2030, they’ll need to start raising more and more revenue from them otherwise you eventually get a ~£16 billion hole in the U.K. budget by 2045-2050. In my mind, it makes the most sense to raise VED on ICE at the same rate to disincentivise their purchase as we get closer to 2035.

Sure there are new sources of VAT from public charging but that isn’t going to touch the sides of £16 billion so something has to give. Don’t forget VAT on domestic electricity is being slowly eroded away by solar, batteries and cheap over night tariffs.

 

[bigmike20vt]

One day running an EV is going to cost the same or more as running an ICE, it has to, otherwise the government has no monies...

if the government are anything other than corrupt / stupid then I disagree. yes EV running costs will have to go up ... but if the government are honest about wanting to reduce emissions then ICE running costs should also go up.

what ever they charge for EVs , it should always be advantageous to choose an EV over an ICE when you replace your car imo.

 

[413x]

I don’t mean this as an insult but very few people can mentally budget years in advance. So instead of seeing that a used EV may be an extra £3000 - £4000 (with charger) up front like for like, but will most likely save money in the long run. They just see a much higher entry cost for more hassle.

Money talks and right now EVs look poor value. Yet the Tory government have decided to remove incentives and instead are using EVs as a target in their “culture” wars. The move to EVs has been knocked back at least a decade IMHO.

EV entry barrier is still very high. You're looking at 10k+ rather than sub 5k.

EVs just haven't been around long enough for those on a budget to get them. Good EVs that is. Think I'm 5 years away from EV ownership

 

[ICDP]

EV entry barrier is still very high. You're looking at 10k+ rather than sub 5k.

EVs just haven't been around long enough for those on a budget to get them. Good EVs that is.

Yeah I did lol recently when an EVangilist tried to tell me with a straight face that a used 2017 Leaf 30kWh was could be bought for the same as a similar vintage Focus. That may be true but a car that might get 70 winter wiles is not remotely viable as a family car.

 

[413x]

Yeah I did lol recently when an EVangilist tried to tell me with a straight face that a used 2017 Leaf 30kWh was could be bought for the same as a similar vintage Focus. That may be true but a car that might get 70 winter wiles is not remotely viable as a family car.

Its only last 12 months that EVs Ave been appropriate for my use case. And that means a long wait before they are a reasonable used price.

A lot could change though.
Electric;petrol price could swing either way
Gov might have to put VED on EVs. Making old petrol more appealing.
A new Incentive may come Out for EVs But I see that as unlikely to be now.

Right now. If my car was a write off? I'd be getting another old petrol.

Think the new EVs are great. I'm not a hater. But cost is years off viable for a WFHer

 

[ICDP]

Its only last 12 months that EVs Ave been appropriate for my use case. And that means a long wait before they are a reasonable used price.

A lot could change though.
Electric;petrol price could swing either way
Gov might have to put VED on EVs. Making old petrol more appealing.
A new Incentive may come Out for EVs But I see that as unlikely to be now.

Right now. If my car was a write off? I'd be getting another old petrol.

Think the new EVs are great. I'm not a hater. But cost is years off viable for a WFHer

That’s why I have been leasing. The range and infrastructure have reached decent level but the prices a still a bit high. A 64kW MG4 is getting there though and in 1.5 years could be a viable £15k - £17k purchase with a few year’s warranty left.

 

[413x]

That’s why I have been leasing. The range and infrastructure have reached decent level but the prices a still a bit high. A 64kW MG4 is getting there though and in 1.5 years could be a viable £15k - £17k purchase with a few year’s warranty left.

15k is still way way over my price point because barely use a car

 

[m4rmite]

Will the government apply ved to evs but leave some petrols band below that of an ev?
Surely not as its emission based.
That will mean the thousands of petrol cars that are ved free will go up as well.
A move that the ones shouting for evs to pay a fee would not have thought of.
After all their range rovers and Bentleys are at the top of the band so it doesn't affect them

 

[Nasher]

Will the government apply ved to evs but leave some petrols band below that of an ev?
Surely not as its emission based.
That will mean the thousands of petrol cars that are ved free will go up as well.
A move that the ones shouting for evs to pay a fee would not have thought of.
After all their range rovers and Bentleys are at the top of the band so it doesn't affect them

They haven't changed tax retroactively in the past. They add a percentage every year but cars which are £0 aren't likely to go up.

EVs do cause pollution, just in a different way so they won't escape it forever. They will wait until most people have one and then slap them with loads of tax. Probably partly on the electricity using "smart" meters

 

[b0rn2sk8]

They haven't changed tax retroactively in the past. They add a percentage every year but cars which are £0 aren't likely to go up.

EVs do cause pollution. Mostly with the manufacturing, so they won't escape it forever.

They already did, my EV is currently zero, it will be £150 or what ever VED is these days after 2025.

The old euro 5 diesel I used to drive will still be £30 which makes no sense.