But that is within the current tax system. They don't go back and change old ones. The diesels with cheap tax are all pre 2018.
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EV general discussion
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But that is within the current tax system. They don't go back and change old ones. The diesels with cheap tax are all pre 2018.
Soldato
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Same with my 2001 Honda Insight. Won’t be free in 2025.
So yes Nasher, it is retrospective change!
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Actually saw an old Insight in the local Sainsburys at the weekend, wondered if it was yours! There can't be too many around now.Same with my 2001 Honda Insight. Won’t be free in 2025.
So yes Nasher, it is retrospective change!
Yes, sorry, I didn't read that properly, but even the £500/year of that which is tax is still 5x my current "fuel" bill.
I don't disagree that they need to start recovering that missing tax at some point, but as several other posters have already mentioned, they would need to disincentivise ICE cars at the same time.
The problem with that is that VED is a very tiny portion of the running costs of an ICE when compared to fuel*. Adding an extra £500 to an ICE's VED is maybe increasing the running costs by 40-50% (less if you include insurance). Adding it to an EV's VED increases it by 400-500%, so it would be more appropriate to increase fuel duty by 400-500% surely?
Otherwise, the problem is, who in their right mind is going to spend £10k extra on an EV when the running costs are the same as an ICE?
* obviously mileage dependent
I have - can't complain as it means I can buy something decent when my current lease is up
But yes, that pretty much backs up my point. I'm not going to spend £35k on an EV which will be worth £15k in 5 years and cost £200/month to run, when I could spend £25k on an ICE which will be worth £15k in 5 years and cost £200/month to run.
In reality, if those were the options, I'd just spend £5k on a 10 year old ICE which will be worth £2k in 5 years and cost £200/month to run, and the government's clean air targets can go **** themselves.
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Soldato
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indeed..... it really annoys me that, why do old diesels get a pass but EVs dont? (and i say this also as someone whose 2nd car will benefit, i think the tax on our 2011 euro 5 pug diesel was £35 this time, and i dont think (but not certain) that it will go up hugely in 2025..
its crazy.
Yeah, I think it's pretty **** to do it retrospectively, but hey, what's the government there for if not to screw over us plebs?
Same with my 2001 Honda Insight. Won’t be free in 2025.
So yes Nasher, it is retrospective change!
In that case expect a lot more bangers to be driving around with no tax :/
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£0 band A is pretty rare. I wouldn’t think it’s gonna change the attitude of drivers of old bangers.
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There is little point doing this as it isn't needed. If you want to buy an ICE in 2035 the tax is almost irrelevant - almost nobody is going to sell you one. What lots of people have missed when the deadline moved to 2035 is that it's largely irrelevant anyway, manufacturers are increasingly going to be unable to sell many ICE vehicles long before 2035 due to the quota system and there will be very little choice anyway. It is already happening - if you wish to purchase a new 5 Series with a petrol engine in the UK you can only buy a 520i. By 2030 I doubt even this will be on offer, regardless of the fact it's technically still able to be sold for another 5 years at that point. So why bother changing the tax?
Unless you mean on existing vehicles, which again serves little purpose as these vehicles already exist on the road and nobody is scrapping them because the tax is expensive - all that happens is their value reduces as demand for them falls, meaning the overall cost of buying them remains similar anyway. So it is then purely about revenue generation rather than influencing consumer decision making..
I think it is wrong and unfair to retrospectively apply tax to electric vehicles, just as it would be to other types of vehicle. The purpose of these taxes is to influence consumer decision making - to encourage people not to buy certain cars and to buy other cars. Once the car has been produced and exists, this stops being a benefit. Retrospective tax increases like this are rare, fortunately, for good reason. The last time they tried it, in 2006, it was abandoned.
Soldato
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i wonder how many people will be sorning their ev for a week or so at the start of March 2025 and then taxing it just before the April deadline? unless i understand it wrong, that would save you 1 years tax.... or £160 - £180ish
indeed it may be worth doing that in 2024 and getting your dates lined up, to then miss the possible rush of people doing it in 2025
indeed it may be worth doing that in 2024 and getting your dates lined up, to then miss the possible rush of people doing it in 2025
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Soldato
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Direct debit. Got more things to focus on that a few quid here or there.
I meant to say the idea would be to increase the tax at the same rate for both new (not retroactive) ICE and EV at the same rate, at the same time to maintain the incentive/disincentive.
I don’t think there would be a huge pull to older cars because they have always been significantly cheaper to run in terms of total cost. People don’t buy new cars because they are cheaper to run than an older car. They buy new cars because they are new and shiny.
You’d also need to factor in that this would be a gradual change over time. Battery prices are still dropping and the fabled £100/kWh to create price parity is not that far away. ICE cars will generally get more expensive as volumes drop, emission standards tighten and sales quotas kick in.
I’m on the same page with you on the retrospective changes to vehicle taxation. The current crop of EVs were certainly sold as being £0 VED as an incentive to buy one before the bait and switch just like £30 euro 5 diesels were.
However, I think you’ve missed the point above, it’s not about creating a disincentive to buy ICE, it’s about raising revenue and replacing the revenue currently raised by fuel duty over the long term.
By my estimation, private cars account for £16b of the ~£30b currently raised. It could be more but commercial traffic accounts for a lot. You’ve got 3 choices, have a £30b hole in your budget (borrowing), make cuts or increase/create other taxes.
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From 1 April 2025 , new registered EV owners will need to pay the £40k car supplement tax. By 2025, there will likely be fewer new cars not over £40k, than above it, anyway
Source : https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/running/electric-car-road-tax-guide-do-i-need-to-pay/
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Soldato
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the 40k premium tax comes in in 2025 for EVs. this isnt being backdated unlike the rest of the EV car tax however, so if you buy an EV in 2024 you are safe from that.
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I'm sure a few will do this, be it's what, £13 a month from April 2025. Probably the same price as a loaf of bread in 2025
This is skewed somewhat by the fact that if you're looking at an EV as your only car then a newer one is likely to be the only option - there's a 10 year old ICE out there to suit almost everyone's needs. A 10 year old EV is going to have very limited range and slow charging (unless it's a Model S), which means for most people it's not going to be an option.
However, if you're saving £200+/month in fuel, then that effectively increases your purchase budget by £200, so if you'd only previously been "spending"* £100/month on the car itself, you could now "spend" £300/month for the same total cost.
When I got my Zoe, it was a choice between running an old banger worth ~£3-4k until it "died" (so about 3-4 years), or a newer EV. Given I was spending £200/month on fuel at the time, plus £15 VED, along with the depreciation "cost", that was a total of ~£300/month, not taking into account any inevitable repair costs for a 10+ year old car.
HP on the Zoe was £1k deposit + £360/month, plus ~£15 in electric - but after 5 years it would still have been worth a few £k (looking on Autotrader, around £8-10k at the moment).
So for 5 years:
TCO of the old banger = £3k (purchase) + 60 x £215 (fuel+VED) = £15,900
TCO of the Zoe = £1k (deposit) + 60 x £375 (HP+electric) = £23,500 - £8k (equity) = £15,500
So almost identical overall cost over the 5 years.
Yes, I could have spent half that on say a 30kwh Leaf, but the 80-100 mile range would have been a right pain in the **** (to put it mildly!).
Yes, I could also have gotten HP on a cheaper ICE, but the running cost savings wouldn't have been anywhere close.
Those maths don't necessarily work any more since the government grant is gone and it relies on finding a 0% HP deal, but with "newer" cars like the Niro and MGs dropping into the £15-20k bracket, it's still feasible to get a much newer EV compared to an older ICE, without increasing your budget too much. Start hitting those newer EVs with big VED bills and people will stick to the older ICE (and obviously not everyone is in the position to get £20k+ of finance at any kind of competitive rate!)
* e.g. purchase price vs depreciation/lease cost/etc.
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I get it but those circumstances don’t exist anymore and are unlikely to ever exist again in the U.K.
At the time, residuals were very high and I expect the Zoe was probably being sold as well just like the Leaf was for the vast majority of its life. Did it also come with a free charger? If not it would have come with a grant for one.
Depreciation on new EVs is back in the normal range at best, it can be higher than ICE on certain cars so even if there was 0% finance, it’s still an expensive purchase. There are no good finance deals on used cars, you’d be looking at 8%-10%.
Also people using car which already exist is also a good thing, particularly where manufacturing a new car is a long way from being net zero (air quality issues aside). Reduce, reuse, recycle and all that.
At the time, residuals were very high and I expect the Zoe was probably being sold as well just like the Leaf was for the vast majority of its life. Did it also come with a free charger? If not it would have come with a grant for one.
Depreciation on new EVs is back in the normal range at best, it can be higher than ICE on certain cars so even if there was 0% finance, it’s still an expensive purchase. There are no good finance deals on used cars, you’d be looking at 8%-10%.
Also people using car which already exist is also a good thing, particularly where manufacturing a new car is a long way from being net zero (air quality issues aside). Reduce, reuse, recycle and all that.
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Oh yeah, I don't disagree with any of that - the grants, and high residuals certainly skewed the affordability very much in the favour of EVs, which has definitely been corrected now (and yes it did come with a free charger as well).
I just think it's important that policy doesn't swing too far the opposite way (assuming any of the claims to target net zero are even remotely true - given the recent history of government promises vs reality, it wouldn't surprise me if their real current goal is to out-pollute china
)This is why retrospective policy changes are very "dangerous". You could have someone with a perfectly good, well maintained car that suits their needs perfectly and has many years/miles left in it, that they are then essentially forced to scrap because suddenly it's this year's scapegoat (looking at you here ULEZ/CAZ/etc.)
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