F1 2009 Season discussion/development thread

[Sparky]

F1 is safe, i know of 3 known buyers for Honda and there are also 3 or 4 other groups who have expressed an interest. Our budget has not changed [but we do not rely on car sales for revenue]. Next March,when F1 begins again and the excitement created by the new regs is on show for all to see, people will be raving about it.

As numerous people have stated, F1 has had many comings and goings and will continue to do so. Bernie i think finally understands that the teams will no longer play second fiddle to him or the FIA, so in my opinion there will be changes in the next couple of years that people will claim is the death nail for F1.
However, F1 will still be going strong in one form or another long after we all stop watching/talking about it.

2009 is likely to be the season that either keeps F1 in the hands of BE or forces the teams to breakaway. Just my opinion though.

 

[sunama]

I'm certainly looking forward to the 2009 season. At the very least I expect the first race to be exciting as we find out just who has made the best use of the new rules/regs.

I'm quite suprised that there is so much doom-mongering in this thread.

 

[Sparky]

Mate people believe way to much of what they read in papers,magazines and strangely the internet. One of my oldest mates works for Honda [we both learned our trade at Lola] and i was speaking to him a couple of nights ago, although he is a bit peed off about the situation, he really feels that Honda will be running at OZ 2009 under one name or another.

They are still working on their car and fully expect to be racing in 2009.

 

[Duke]

I'm certainly looking forward to the 2009 season. At the very least I expect the first race to be exciting as we find out just who has made the best use of the new rules/regs.

And to see how many front wings are lost

 

[JRS]

Grand Prix racing has survived the loss of Maserati, Alfa, Vanwall, Cooper, Gordini, BRM, Bristol, HWM, Alta, Lotus, Porsche, Brabham, Tyrrell, Matra, March, Arrows, Shadow, Wolf and a whole host of others. It'll survive losing Honda.

But GP racing is a seperate concept to F1. And F1 is very much on the ropes. Too many regulations are preventing the manufacturers from making anything particularly exciting technology-wise. So what's the point of going racing? The old adage of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" never really applied to F1 - the manufacturer teams were usually in it to develop stuff that could be applied to their road cars at a later date. If they can't do that, and are getting no other tangible benefit, then they'll leave.

If standard engines were to come in and be enforced, you can bet that Toyota and Ferrari would bow out. If a standard, inexepensive engine was to come along (a la DFV) that wasn't enforced but that everyone could buy then Ferrari would probably carry on building their own.

In '69 (pretty sure it was '69). most of the cars on the grid were running the Cosworth DFV. Ferrari were using their V12 for the last year before the Flat-12 came in. BRM were using a wide-angle V12. Think there might have been a Matra engine on the grid at times. But Lotus, Brabham, Ken Tyrrell's brigade and McLaren were all certainly using DFVs. The top 10 drivers in the championship that year were in DFV powered cars (Ferrari was having a rebuilding year, running a single car for Amon. BRM were on the slide to oblivion). Having an engine like that available would be a good thing for the sport, but not if it was mandatory. If a standard engine is enforced, then F1 starts to become a spec-racing Formula.

Nice to see that someone can be accused of "doom-mongering" for daring to suggest that F1 is probably not going to survive. Tell me - at what point do we say that it isn't F1 any more? The standard engine? The standard floor? The standard aero bits, the suspension? I'm all for a customer chassis and engine being available at a reasonable cost, but if you can only go GP racing with that chassis and engine then you aren't racing in Formula One any more IMO.


***edit***

I posted the above on another forum, where folks are also being called doom-mongerers for daring to suggest that Formula One might be on the way out even if GP racing isn't. Nice to see that it isn't just this place that completely misses the point at times

 

[Duke]

Brawn interview over at Autosport makes for a good read - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72368

 

[Slam62]

yeah 3 buyers for honda, don't make me larf.

Hello.... the money has all gone chaps.. and F1 is a luxury.

On another forum someone mentioned fezza struggling to sell anything - not surprising really.

The motor industry is on its knees.


edit: listen to the great man himself:

[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7766057.stm"/URL] .... oh bugger what have I done wrong

 

[dannyjo22]

yeah 3 buyers for honda, don't make me larf.

Well they are rumoured to be selling for a £1. Team Ocuk? Surely we can find two suitable drivers from motors

Meh on the front wing and Fail on the rear wing.

 

[sunama]

... but if you can only go GP racing with that chassis and engine then you aren't racing in Formula One any more IMO.

That is correct.

I think F1 (even in the next few years), will always find a way to differentiate different teams and their cars.

I think what you are talking about is near identical cars, with the only difference being the team colours, personnel and infrastructure. That certainly isnt F1.

Either way, if the FIA do decide to run identical specs for a couple of years, until teams can afford to increase their budgets, it will bring a refreshing change and we will finally get to see who the fastest driver in "F1" is.

I still feel that Max...oops...JRS, is jumping the gun.

 

[sunama]

yeah 3 buyers for honda, don't make me larf.

Hello.... the money has all gone chaps.. and F1 is a luxury.

It wouldnt make any sense to continue development and work on the Honda 2009 car, if there wasnt a realisitic hope of racing in Australia. If there was no realistic way for them to race in 2009, then surely it would make financial sense for them to fold with immediate effect and save money?

 

[JRS]

I think what you are talking about is near identical cars, with the only difference being the team colours, personnel and infrastructure. That certainly isnt F1.

And sadly, it is exactly the way that TPTB want to take the sport.

Either way, if the FIA do decide to run identical specs for a couple of years, until teams can afford to increase their budgets, it will bring a refreshing change and we will finally get to see who the fastest driver in "F1" is.

No, we won't. Not even in inverted commas. We might get to see who the fastest driver in Grand Prix racing is though. Which would be fun, until all the teams get bored and bugger off.

I still feel that Max...oops...JRS, is jumping the gun.

 

[sunama]

And sadly, it is exactly the way that TPTB want to take the sport.

What is TPTB?

No, we won't. Not even in inverted commas. We might get to see who the fastest driver in Grand Prix racing is though.

If we had Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi, Vettel, Kubica and Massa all in identically specced cars, I think we will find out who the best is. If the series is called, "F1", then be definition, the guy(s) who perform best in that series, will be the best driver(s) in F1.

Which would be fun, until all the teams get bored and bugger off.

Teams wont get bored. There are shed loads of people who want to be involved in motor racing in some capacity and if it means working with the best drivers in the World, then that is where their ambitions will lie. If one team leaves, then another will replace it. It wont be too difficult as the costs will be low. While this is the case, "F1" will survive.

You ARE doom mongering.

 

[Slam62]

The 3 months is because they have to give 90 days notice, I thought RB said the real deadline was end of Jan

 

[JRS]

What is TPTB?

TPTB stands for "The Powers That Be". i.e. the folks who are in charge.

I'll try and spell my point out in simple language, since you appeared to miss it by a good few miles....

Grand Prix racing will survive this. It has survived the loss of bigger names than Honda, and it will survive this. What probably won't survive is Formula One. Because in their quest to cut the cost of going Grand Prix racing, the FIA are likely to force the standardisation of much of the technology of the cars. Max has already announced that he likes the idea of standard chassis and engines (he would, given that he was one of the founding members of the March company after all). Formula One will either have to be completely re-written, or dropped as the Formula used for the Grand Prix world championship.

If saying that makes me a doom-mongerer, so be it.

 

[Lopéz]

JRS is right, we don't need a regulation standard engine, we need an affordable customer engine. Judd V8, Cosworth DFV, Cosworth HB - something that smaller teams can go out and buy off the shelf.

This has been lacking really for some years now and would not surprise me if it's one reason why we don't have so many "minnows" making up the spaces on the grid (Larrouse/AGS/Minardi/Leyton House/Fondmetal/Arrows/Forti/Andrea Moda/Brabham/Tyrrell etc)

Okay so none of the above teams were eparticularly successful in the late 80's/early 90's but they were there, adding to the spectacle and bringing new drivers to the fore.

F1 is not just about seeing who is the best driver in the world, it never has been - it's about the whole package. The driver, the chassis, the engine, putting it all together and coming up with a winning combination.

 

[dannyjo22]

JRS is right, we don't need a regulation standard engine, we need an affordable customer engine. Judd V8, Cosworth DFV, Cosworth HB - something that smaller teams can go out and buy off the shelf.

This has been lacking really for some years now and would not surprise me if it's one reason why we don't have so many "minnows" making up the spaces on the grid (Larrouse/AGS/Minardi/Leyton House/Fondmetal/Arrows/Forti/Andrea Moda/Brabham/Tyrrell etc).

Thats all well and good but whats the point of a racing series where 7 of the 10 teams then tread water in a car 2 or more seconds per lap slower than the rest. It would only really work if there was a horsepower limit.

It only worked to a small degree before because williams with a decent budget could win the title with less than 40 million and a customer team could run on less that 10 million. 10 years later and williams are struggling with a budget of around 160 million.

Team would enter if it was possible to do it for around 20 million. No team on the grid should be spending more than 50 million to run two cars around a race track.

Personally I'm all for a standard chassis, but I'd like to see them do run their own engines. If they ran their own engine they would have to make the very same engine available to buy for any team.

 

[Type_R]

Speculation suggests that JB is about to terminate his contract with Honda and move on to another team, presumably Torro Rosso. Is he about to quash any chances of achieving anything in F1 by jumping ship at the last second?

Ross Brawn has already said the Honda 2009 car should be good for wins and here is a man who knows what he is talking about. Im sure Prodrive or someone will take over Honda, its too good a deal for anyone to miss out on! Should be an interesting couple of weeks leading up to the tests.

 

[Lopéz]

Thats all well and good but whats the point of a racing series where 7 of the 10 teams then tread water in a car 2 or more seconds per lap slower than the rest. It would only really work if there was a horsepower limit.

Small teams have done very little but tread water since the 20's.... that will never ever change unless you get standard chassis/engine combo's - and then it may as well be a one make series.

 

[dannyjo22]

Ross Brawn has already said the Honda 2009 car should be good for wins and here is a man who knows what he is talking about.

Brawn is talking out his backside. Yet he is talking from the point of needing a new buyer so whose to blame him for stretching the truth.

Every year since 2000, Honda have been building a car to push the boundaries. Then come june you hear the same old tale of woe about now concentrating on the following years car. You cannot really blame Jenson for looking at his options.

 

[Type_R]

Brawn is talking out his backside. Yet he is talking from the point of needing a new buyer so whose to blame him for stretching the truth.

Every year since 2000, Honda have been building a car to push the boundaries. Then come june you hear the same old tale of woe about now concentrating on the following years car. You cannot really blame Jenson for looking at his options.

I agree the promises from both Honda and Toyota have been amusing at the best of times, but I think this year could have been the year Honda really moved up the grid. Only time will tell, if they make it to the grid, what sort of car RB has managed to produce for them.