F1 2009 Season discussion/development thread
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Brawn had virtually no control over the 2008 design, of course just getting into a top job he had to TRY and improve it
2009 was his baby, with fluid dynamics department (amongst others) being created from his say so along with huge amounts of hiring throughout last season
Brawn hasnt failed in F1 through two different teams in the last 14 years or so, I think you are being a bit nieve writting him off so quickly
MS may have been a decent driver (and a huge cheat) but surely its about designing a car to any drivers abilities to make the most of them, and as Button can beat Alonso in an equal /better car, I dont see why Button cant beat anyone on a given day
The other thing is which is a bit curious - surely all the Honda team's contracts are payed for by Honda, and as they wind the team up surely none of the contracts are legal any more? Honda are basically cancelling all of them
The other thing to note - Surely BMW/ Ferrari/McLaren / Red Bull or anyone else can (IF THEY WANT TO) buy out either driver's contract and replace them with JB or Barrichello - absolutely nothing stopping them....
With all due respect to Button, I dont think he is worth anywhere near any team buying out a driver to replace with him.
If Button can win in a World Championship Winning car, then so can the rest of the field and probably more easily, so I doubt any of the teams would go out on a limb to save him, especially with his contract record.
As Brawn rates him highly, I still find it surprising other people dont but hey yur obviously meant to do brilliant things with a duff car
He only made one major contractual error (the 2nd he stuck where he was) and the first was down to bad maanagement - who he changed straight away
Mosely pushing for more money to be shared amongst the teams. Can see Bernie loving this.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/12/08/fia-wants-more-fom-money-for-teams/
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/12/08/fia-wants-more-fom-money-for-teams/
Who wants to bet Max still hasn't totally forgiven Bernie for not being 100% on his side through the whole "Moselygate" affair.
That is true. However, no one asked him to lie about things as he did. He clearly stated (I remember), that in 2008, things were going to improve and that he expected Honda to move up the field as the year progressed. To my memory, Honda did make a jump forward, when they introduced their revised aerodynamic package, but then they went steadily backwards after that.
There was no need to lie.
At no stage have I written him off.
He could move to a team like BMW and using the Ferrari and Bennetton blue prints for success could push them fowards to compete with McLaren and Ferrari. They have an able driver in Kubica who could win the WDC.
Yes. But you have to have absolute confidence in your driver. You have to KNOW that your driver is the best and that if you can give him the 2nd best car, he will win the WDC in it. In MS, they had arguably the best driver ever in F1 - the driver who knew how to win more races than any other driver in history, by a very very large margin.
When Button was hungry, he won a single race. This compares with Alonso's multiple race wins and WDCs. I think you have to be honest with yourself that even at his peak, Button cannot be given the nod ahead of Alonso.
Alonso is widely recognised as the most complete driver in F1. Button isnt even in the top 6.
This is true. However, Ferrari have 2 very good drivers (both capable of winning races and the WDC), while McLaren have 1 weak driver (Heikki), who could be replaced, by wont, as McLaren have adopted the blue-print used by Schumacher of creating a team based around 1 lead driver and a No.2 driver.
Furthermore, Button isnt good enough to make teams go to such an extent as "benching" any of their current drivers. They didnt do this Alonso, hence, they would be mad to do it for a driver not used to competing at the front of the grid. Button might not be able to (or want to) handle the pressure.
I admire your loyalty to Button. He is British after all, so why not support him?
I dont think that Brawn rates him highly. They wouldve used Button and Barrichello to develop the Honda and bring it forward. When the car was getting on the podium they would almost certainly have opted to bring in a top line driver.
From what I understand Honda's driver line up wasnt even confirmed and earlier they tried to get Alonso. This is how much faith Honda had in Button. Brawn knows that to make the Ferrari/Bennetton blue-print work, he needs the absolute best driver: MS used to drive in the Ferrari when it wasnt the best, but used to make up the gap, using his own skill, thus negating the advantage that other cars had - this is the sort of driver he needs - Button is not this driver.
Just as Adrian Newey is apparently spending more time taking part in leisure pursuits, so is Button (I remember seeing him a while back on some Soccer show, with a beer in his hand, ogling some dumb blonde - when I saw this, I knew things would go downhill and a year or so later, we have a Button, who in 2008 was outperformed by his aging team-mate, who we know was previously, totally blown away by MS. If he cant compete against Barrichello, how on Earth is he expected to compete against Alonso, Massa and Hamilton?)
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I admire your loyalty to Alonso.
Whatever way you look at it, rookie Hamilton beat the reigning world champion when they were both in the same car. The latter threw a hissy fit and walked out of McLaren.
Alonso may well be a "complete something" but not necessarily the best F1 driver - I suspect that he will not be F1 Champion again.
Over the last few years, Alonso is the guy who has won more races and scored more points than any other driver. He is also the only guy to have taken on and beaten the might of MS and Ferrari.
He moved to a new team (McLaren) and was immediately competitive. The rookie who you speak of, only happens to be one of the most gifted racing drivers ever to have raced in F1 and has subsequently gone on to win the WDC in only his 2nd season. Alonso actually matched the rookie's points total, despite being under immense pressure at McLaren, to leave the team.
He cemented his reputation this year by winning 2 races in what was widely accepted as the 3rd or 4th best car at the time. He also demolished his team-mate in the process, outqualifying him in 2008, 100% of the time. No other driver in F1 can boast this feat.
Aside for getting outperformed by his team-mate and picking up a monster salary, I would love to hear an argument for Button.
I think both he AND McLaren wanted to part company. Had McLaren asked him to stay, he probably would've but, as McLaren were moving to use Hamilton to spearhead their 2008 season, they needed a No.2 driver, not another No.1.
So who is your nominee for top dog?
there are so many blind inaccuracies to your post its pointless trying to correct you
ps - its got nothing to do with him being British, I have supported him since he was at Williams in a decent car,and I believe given the same level of equipment he can do so again
BTW:
I was just looking to see what the general feeling is and was able to very quickly find many many articles all agreeing that Alonso is the daddy:
Murray Walker:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/08122008/23/murray-walker-s-top-ten-f1-drivers-2008.html
Readers Poll:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/
Ross Brawn:
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/168649-0/honda_waiting_for_alonso_best_driver_in_f1.html
I couldnt find a single article stating that Button was one of, if not the best. To state that Button can match Alonso is mind-blowing.
I was just looking to see what the general feeling is and was able to very quickly find many many articles all agreeing that Alonso is the daddy:
Murray Walker:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/08122008/23/murray-walker-s-top-ten-f1-drivers-2008.html
Readers Poll:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/
Ross Brawn:
http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/168649-0/honda_waiting_for_alonso_best_driver_in_f1.html
I couldnt find a single article stating that Button was one of, if not the best. To state that Button can match Alonso is mind-blowing.
1. So you dont think that his motivation and ability to do well in races has diminished over the last 18 months?
2. How do you explain the fact that Barrichello out qualified Button (10-8) more times than Button out-qualified Barrichello?
3. How do you explain the fact that Barrichello outscored Button (11-3) in the WDC?
If he is struggling against Barrichello, how can he compete against Hamilton and Alonso?
More like mind-numbing
On a more upcoming note it seems Williams expecting another team to quite before racing in March
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If Toyota go, I suspect that Williams (who I believe use Toyota engines) will swiftly follow suit.
Remind me, who are Williams' sponsors for 2009?
Remind me, who are Williams' sponsors for 2009?
From comments in Autosport a couple of weeks ago, it would appear that Barrichello did more to bring the car forward in his short time with the team than Button ever managed.
It was that big "How to Build a Ferrari F1 Car" book that he brought with him....
And as for the Lenovo/McLaren deal. Although it states there wont be any on car advertising next year, I fully expect them to replace Santander all over the cars and drivers the following year. Clever move my Lenovo if you ask me.
There was only one way that was going to end, sadly. Alonso should have been cleverer than he was - instead, he allowed himself to get worked up (like he did in '06 when his championship lead started to evaporate) and burned his bridges with Ron Dennis. Hamilton didn't help matters at all by playing silly buggers in Hungary, but the fact that McLaren sided with him against Alonso (the reigning world champion, no less) and Alonso's reaction to that guaranteed the mess that was to follow. I hope they think it was worth it.
I don't mind admitting that I misjudged Alonso. I thought that after all that went on in '07, his return to Renault would be an unmitigated disaster and signal the end of his career. He might have had a shaky start, but by the end of this season he was driving as well as he's ever done.
/cue sunama saying something terribly witty/smug/retarded (delete as appropriate)
I'd be happy to see Alonso go to Ferrari now. And it could well be on the cards, provided the governing body don't end up killing the sport in the meantime. Alonso at Ferrari versus The Great And Glorious Almighty Messiah™ at McLaren ought to provide some excitement even with the current state of the sport.