Soldato
Yeah, Vettel leaving Red Bull. And joining Ferrari from RB for that matter.
F1 2015 - Teams and Drivers - Who goes where?!
- Thread starter ~Mike~
- Start date
Yeah, Vettel leaving Red Bull. And joining Ferrari from RB for that matter.
OTOH if Alonso is only there for a year, then KM could treat the year as an opportunity to learn from the best. A year-long masterclass, if you will.
Has being utterly destroyed ever a good learning process for a driver to then go on to be a top line driver?
Not actually true - Honda have known Merc engine lay out for long enough to copy it if not improve on it also, so at the very least they will be at the same point as Ferrari and Renault who haven't been able to do anything on track in regards to development because of the engine freeze (and who knows they may have gone down a blind alley and have to change everything to Merc's layout as well)
Renault may well have to start again from scratch anyway given how bad their engine has been over the whole year.
Don't dispute that Merc will have developments as well, of course they will, but imo between Scarbs and other sources there shouldn't be as much difference as there has been this season (taking aero etc out of it for a moment).
How about Merc convincing you otherwise - yes they had some reliability issues this season, but very few considering the completely new engine lay out.
Im not saying Honda will be perfect, but if Merc can do it, there is no reason to believe someone else cant either. In one sense the fact that Honda are only coming in a year after the new engine format is a benefit to them and they don't have to catch up on multiple years of on track developments where all the competition have got over any hurdles one at a time where as Honda would have to do it all at once.
Shoddy by McLaren and a particularly bad choice imo, but not surprising how they have dealt with things recently.
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Caporegime
I think it's doubtful that the benefits of an extra year outstrip the benefits of not having a freeze in place. Honda go into their design with a healthy amount of knowledge of how others have done it. I expect them to deliver an engine that matches or outstrips the Mercedes power-unit whilst Ferrari et al are stuck with fundamental design problems they can't address due to the absurdity that is the partial development freeze.
while I agree it isn't everything - Im presuming Merc, Ferrari and Renault are able to do anything they want on the test bed (ie this isn't included in the ban, and its only an ontrack ban)?
Otherwise - exactly my thoughts
Soldato
Also I can't see Alonso wanting to compete unless he has been shown with figures to back it up that Honda's engine really is a "jewel of machinery" as Dennis has said... yeah I know he's not going to say it's anything but, but then seriously can't see Alonso wanting to drive another couple of years in a car which isn't capable of Podium finishes and wins from the beginning.
McLaren hasn't exactly been good with the best engine in it.
I really hope next year will be Honda+McLaren+Alonso+other driver
I also think DR has been driver of the season
Almost always has finished above vettel
Quite often out performing the car (as far as you can gauge)
Feel Williams have really under performed. Mainly due to poor decisions
Massa has been Massa and Bottas has been good
Alonso has outperformed the car.. KR has been a huge disappointment.. KR and SV in Ferrari next year?
If neither up their game could be a bad year again!
McLaren have been average as well as both their drivers being average
Unfortunately we all know how Lotus have been.
Was actually good to see Maldonado not giving up until the end.. JEV got told to not worry about him, subsequently got 5 second penalty and thus lost the place
Why was Lotus so much better?
I really hope next year will be Honda+McLaren+Alonso+other driver
I also think DR has been driver of the season
Almost always has finished above vettel
Quite often out performing the car (as far as you can gauge)
Feel Williams have really under performed. Mainly due to poor decisions
Massa has been Massa and Bottas has been good
Alonso has outperformed the car.. KR has been a huge disappointment.. KR and SV in Ferrari next year?
If neither up their game could be a bad year again!
McLaren have been average as well as both their drivers being average
Unfortunately we all know how Lotus have been.
Was actually good to see Maldonado not giving up until the end.. JEV got told to not worry about him, subsequently got 5 second penalty and thus lost the place
Why was Lotus so much better?
Nope. Doesn't even sound like Alonso has negotiated his way out of Ferrari yet.
The only thing regarding the big names that has been confirmed is that Vettel is leaving RBR.
Soldato
Honestly the driver situation is a bit mad.
I cant work out why either party want to move.
Vetel to struggling ferrari ?
Alonso to struggling mclaren
Mclaren have the best engine this year yet cant do anything with it
Ferrari have been poor since 2008 / 9?
Red bull are a quality team ok newey will be doing different things but i bet hes building a awesome car as usual.
I cant work out why either party want to move.
Vetel to struggling ferrari ?
Alonso to struggling mclaren
Mclaren have the best engine this year yet cant do anything with it
Ferrari have been poor since 2008 / 9?
Red bull are a quality team ok newey will be doing different things but i bet hes building a awesome car as usual.
Soldato
http://formulaspy.com/features/mclaren-jenson-kiss-make-now-7539
I didn't know KR called Ron a "control freak" lol... interesting read!...
McLaren may be one of the big names of Formula 1, but for some reason, the relationships they have with their drivers always seem to end somewhat acrimoniously. Just what is it that they are doing wrong?
McLaren, this year, have been acting like a teenage boy. A teenage boy with a long term girlfriend, who can’t help looking over at the pretty girl next door. A pretty neighbour who dumped him a few years ago. And he’d like to do nothing more than ditch his rock solid, dependable, loyal and loving relationship to go chasing after the neighbour girl again.
Crappy analogy aside, McLaren have drawn a lot of criticism in recent months, once it became apparent that Jenson Button & Kevin Magnussen were going to be left squirming over whether they would be retained for next season. With less than three weeks remaining in the season, both remain unconfirmed publicly, with little chance of finding a seat elsewhere should the team drop one as they are expected to do. The rumours strongly suggest that Fernando Alonso is returning to the team after deciding McLaren were a better option than a sabbatical year, with Jenson out on his ear.
McLaren’s treatment of their drivers has been shoddy, but this doesn’t appear to be a particularly new trait to the Woking team. A mere glance over the past two decades show that not many of the drivers that departed McLaren did so in an amicable fashion. A more in-depth look would show that some very talented drivers have chosen to walk away from the team, sometimes to join a less competitive outfit rather than continue working for Woking.
After 15 seasons in the sport, driving for the likes of Williams, Benetton, BAR/Honda, McLaren & Brawn GP, watching the 2009 World Champion remain clueless about whether the team he has spent five years at are keeping him on next year…it’s uncomfortable. Regardless of F1’s reputation as being a piranha club, regardless of how ruthless the paddock can be, being kept on the back burner in case the better option falls through is a somewhat reprehensible way to reward a loyal servant. McLaren may not rate Jenson as highly as Fernando Alonso, and may feel that Kevin Magnussen is the better long term prospect, but a simple ‘no’ in Jenson’s ear would be showing him basic common courtesy. Luckily, Jenson seems to have cottoned on to the fact that he is merely a contingency effort, and his sardonic attitude in Austin certainly seemed to imply that he no longer seems to be feeling the love from his team. All the hints are there that Jenson may be about to depart the sport for the WEC, a move which appears to be on his terms, and not McLaren’s.
Such a choice would allow the most experienced driver on the grid to walk away with dignity, and would be a not so subtle two fingers to McLaren for screwing him around. Should he walk, then McLaren are left with Magnussen,…a driver they seem equally unsure of and unproven as a leader, and Stoffel Vandoorne, a rookie. Or Fernando Alonso, whose relationship with McLaren broke down so completely in 2007 that he chose to return to an uncompetitive Renault just to escape them.
Last year, Sergio Perez’s career was almost destroyed by McLaren’s similar treatment. Sergio was not in the same position as Jenson, nor had he emulated any of the Briton’s achievements, and had Paul Di Resta not completely fallen apart in the second half of 2013, Perez could very well have been walked out of Formula 1 because of McLaren’s reluctance to make their minds up.
Lewis Hamilton chose to walk away from McLaren. Fernando Alonso could have dug his heels in at McLaren after 2007 and made life awkward thanks to his contract for 2008. He didn’t, such was his desire to quit Woking. Kimi Raikkonen, arguably the hottest driver in F1 in 2005/2006 not only walked away, but was quite vocal in his criticism of the ‘control freak’ Ron Dennis’ running of the team. Juan Pablo Montoya not only opted out of McLaren, but opted out of Formula 1 halfway through his second season with the team. Upon hearing that news, McLaren fired him and opted to run test driver Pedro de la Rosa instead for the rest of the season.
More drivers have chosen to leave McLaren, than McLaren themselves have chosen to ditch. Apart from Perez, only Coulthard & Kovalainen in the past decade were released from the team, drivers who were arguably closer to average on the spectrum than those who chose to seek pastures new.
Even Mika Hakkinen, the favoured son of McLaren in the post-Senna (himself a driver that left of his own accord), was said to have only started considering taking a sabbatical after 2001 after receiving an insultingly low salary offer for 2002 from Ron Dennis, despite only barely missing out on the title in 2000. Similarly, Damon Hill turned down Dennis’s low offer for him to join the team in 1997, a salary of a reported 1 million pounds…despite bringing the No.1 with him to McLaren.
Williams during the 1990s were similarly abrupt in their dealings with drivers. Neither Nigel Mansell nor Alain Prost stuck around after their title wins in 1992 and 1993 after feeling undermined by the team signing Prost & Senna during their title campaigns. Damon Hill was ditched during his title win, leaving him to bring the No.1 to Arrows. As late as 2000, Jenson Button first learned what it was like for a team to be trying to find greener grass when they ditched him for Juan Pablo Montoya.
McLaren, in attempting to serve their own interests first, now look comfortable with being in a position that can potentially destroy a driver’s career. The only thing is, they aren’t really in a strong enough position performance wise to do so. While the McLaren-Honda partnership is promising, all it has to trade on right now is theoretical. Theoretically, the Honda power unit will be as good as the Mercedes. Theoretically, it may even be better, however unlikely. But even with the best power unit this year, McLaren have been solidly midfield for most races. Occasional glimpses of speed, sporadic appearances of downforce, but their best appears to be battling with Ferrari, a team with arguably the worst power unit on the grid, suggesting the McLaren chassis isn’t anything special.
McLaren seem to fail completely in the area of driver management. They seem to view the drivers as the final tool to be plugged in to their cars. Perhaps that’s why Kimi Raikkonen performed so well there? Hamilton felt suffocated, Raikkonen couldn’t wait to escape from under Ron’s thumb, David Coulthard supposedly wasn’t allowed grow a beard while a driver there, and Fernando Alonso cut off his locks and had no facial hair during 2007. Martin Whitmarsh, during his brief tenure as boss, seemed to bring a more relaxed environment to the team, but he hardly made any difference to the team’s competitiveness.
McLaren have scored just a solitary championship since 1999. Let that sink in. Despite the ‘there-or-thereabouts’ efforts of the team, just the Driver’s Championship of 2008 resides in their trophy cabinet since the end of the decade before last. The beleaguered Lotus/Enstone team have won more than that. The vision of success they have attempted to sell to prospective drivers doesn’t seem to be a particularly convincing one, with Sebastian Vettel seemingly snubbing their offer to go and join a disconcerted and tumultuous Ferrari. Alonso himself appears to have needed coaxing and to be snookered before accepting a McLaren drive, if such a deal has indeed been made.
Should McLaren-Honda fail to set the world alight in their first season as a partnership, McLaren’s star will wane still further. While the team are still a viable option for a big name driver, a poor performance in 2015 may see them fall to a similar status as what became of Williams in the mid to late 2000s. Attempting to put a ‘star’ driver in their car for 2015 before a guarantee of performance will highlight the team’s shortcomings, and smacks of putting the cart before the horse. There’s no nice way of saying this: If McLaren don’t rate Jenson as a top tier driver, that gives them an escape clause and a chance to save face should their performance remain subpar in 2015 and beyond. Having Fernando drag a 2015 McLaren Honda to 7th place will rubber-stamp their position as a midfield team.
Jenson Button has proven this year that, no matter how good Kevin Magnussen is, he is still superior. Give him a decent car and he can deliver. Give him the chance to spearhead the new partnership with an engine supplier he has intimate knowledge of, from a country where he is incredibly marketable.
And maybe tell him about it. Today. Don’t keep him waiting while you wait and see if Miss Next Door will go on a date with you. Sign Jenson up and tell him you are sorry.
I didn't know KR called Ron a "control freak" lol... interesting read!...
McLaren may be one of the big names of Formula 1, but for some reason, the relationships they have with their drivers always seem to end somewhat acrimoniously. Just what is it that they are doing wrong?
McLaren, this year, have been acting like a teenage boy. A teenage boy with a long term girlfriend, who can’t help looking over at the pretty girl next door. A pretty neighbour who dumped him a few years ago. And he’d like to do nothing more than ditch his rock solid, dependable, loyal and loving relationship to go chasing after the neighbour girl again.
Crappy analogy aside, McLaren have drawn a lot of criticism in recent months, once it became apparent that Jenson Button & Kevin Magnussen were going to be left squirming over whether they would be retained for next season. With less than three weeks remaining in the season, both remain unconfirmed publicly, with little chance of finding a seat elsewhere should the team drop one as they are expected to do. The rumours strongly suggest that Fernando Alonso is returning to the team after deciding McLaren were a better option than a sabbatical year, with Jenson out on his ear.
McLaren’s treatment of their drivers has been shoddy, but this doesn’t appear to be a particularly new trait to the Woking team. A mere glance over the past two decades show that not many of the drivers that departed McLaren did so in an amicable fashion. A more in-depth look would show that some very talented drivers have chosen to walk away from the team, sometimes to join a less competitive outfit rather than continue working for Woking.
After 15 seasons in the sport, driving for the likes of Williams, Benetton, BAR/Honda, McLaren & Brawn GP, watching the 2009 World Champion remain clueless about whether the team he has spent five years at are keeping him on next year…it’s uncomfortable. Regardless of F1’s reputation as being a piranha club, regardless of how ruthless the paddock can be, being kept on the back burner in case the better option falls through is a somewhat reprehensible way to reward a loyal servant. McLaren may not rate Jenson as highly as Fernando Alonso, and may feel that Kevin Magnussen is the better long term prospect, but a simple ‘no’ in Jenson’s ear would be showing him basic common courtesy. Luckily, Jenson seems to have cottoned on to the fact that he is merely a contingency effort, and his sardonic attitude in Austin certainly seemed to imply that he no longer seems to be feeling the love from his team. All the hints are there that Jenson may be about to depart the sport for the WEC, a move which appears to be on his terms, and not McLaren’s.
Such a choice would allow the most experienced driver on the grid to walk away with dignity, and would be a not so subtle two fingers to McLaren for screwing him around. Should he walk, then McLaren are left with Magnussen,…a driver they seem equally unsure of and unproven as a leader, and Stoffel Vandoorne, a rookie. Or Fernando Alonso, whose relationship with McLaren broke down so completely in 2007 that he chose to return to an uncompetitive Renault just to escape them.
Last year, Sergio Perez’s career was almost destroyed by McLaren’s similar treatment. Sergio was not in the same position as Jenson, nor had he emulated any of the Briton’s achievements, and had Paul Di Resta not completely fallen apart in the second half of 2013, Perez could very well have been walked out of Formula 1 because of McLaren’s reluctance to make their minds up.
Lewis Hamilton chose to walk away from McLaren. Fernando Alonso could have dug his heels in at McLaren after 2007 and made life awkward thanks to his contract for 2008. He didn’t, such was his desire to quit Woking. Kimi Raikkonen, arguably the hottest driver in F1 in 2005/2006 not only walked away, but was quite vocal in his criticism of the ‘control freak’ Ron Dennis’ running of the team. Juan Pablo Montoya not only opted out of McLaren, but opted out of Formula 1 halfway through his second season with the team. Upon hearing that news, McLaren fired him and opted to run test driver Pedro de la Rosa instead for the rest of the season.
More drivers have chosen to leave McLaren, than McLaren themselves have chosen to ditch. Apart from Perez, only Coulthard & Kovalainen in the past decade were released from the team, drivers who were arguably closer to average on the spectrum than those who chose to seek pastures new.
Even Mika Hakkinen, the favoured son of McLaren in the post-Senna (himself a driver that left of his own accord), was said to have only started considering taking a sabbatical after 2001 after receiving an insultingly low salary offer for 2002 from Ron Dennis, despite only barely missing out on the title in 2000. Similarly, Damon Hill turned down Dennis’s low offer for him to join the team in 1997, a salary of a reported 1 million pounds…despite bringing the No.1 with him to McLaren.
Williams during the 1990s were similarly abrupt in their dealings with drivers. Neither Nigel Mansell nor Alain Prost stuck around after their title wins in 1992 and 1993 after feeling undermined by the team signing Prost & Senna during their title campaigns. Damon Hill was ditched during his title win, leaving him to bring the No.1 to Arrows. As late as 2000, Jenson Button first learned what it was like for a team to be trying to find greener grass when they ditched him for Juan Pablo Montoya.
McLaren, in attempting to serve their own interests first, now look comfortable with being in a position that can potentially destroy a driver’s career. The only thing is, they aren’t really in a strong enough position performance wise to do so. While the McLaren-Honda partnership is promising, all it has to trade on right now is theoretical. Theoretically, the Honda power unit will be as good as the Mercedes. Theoretically, it may even be better, however unlikely. But even with the best power unit this year, McLaren have been solidly midfield for most races. Occasional glimpses of speed, sporadic appearances of downforce, but their best appears to be battling with Ferrari, a team with arguably the worst power unit on the grid, suggesting the McLaren chassis isn’t anything special.
McLaren seem to fail completely in the area of driver management. They seem to view the drivers as the final tool to be plugged in to their cars. Perhaps that’s why Kimi Raikkonen performed so well there? Hamilton felt suffocated, Raikkonen couldn’t wait to escape from under Ron’s thumb, David Coulthard supposedly wasn’t allowed grow a beard while a driver there, and Fernando Alonso cut off his locks and had no facial hair during 2007. Martin Whitmarsh, during his brief tenure as boss, seemed to bring a more relaxed environment to the team, but he hardly made any difference to the team’s competitiveness.
McLaren have scored just a solitary championship since 1999. Let that sink in. Despite the ‘there-or-thereabouts’ efforts of the team, just the Driver’s Championship of 2008 resides in their trophy cabinet since the end of the decade before last. The beleaguered Lotus/Enstone team have won more than that. The vision of success they have attempted to sell to prospective drivers doesn’t seem to be a particularly convincing one, with Sebastian Vettel seemingly snubbing their offer to go and join a disconcerted and tumultuous Ferrari. Alonso himself appears to have needed coaxing and to be snookered before accepting a McLaren drive, if such a deal has indeed been made.
Should McLaren-Honda fail to set the world alight in their first season as a partnership, McLaren’s star will wane still further. While the team are still a viable option for a big name driver, a poor performance in 2015 may see them fall to a similar status as what became of Williams in the mid to late 2000s. Attempting to put a ‘star’ driver in their car for 2015 before a guarantee of performance will highlight the team’s shortcomings, and smacks of putting the cart before the horse. There’s no nice way of saying this: If McLaren don’t rate Jenson as a top tier driver, that gives them an escape clause and a chance to save face should their performance remain subpar in 2015 and beyond. Having Fernando drag a 2015 McLaren Honda to 7th place will rubber-stamp their position as a midfield team.
Jenson Button has proven this year that, no matter how good Kevin Magnussen is, he is still superior. Give him a decent car and he can deliver. Give him the chance to spearhead the new partnership with an engine supplier he has intimate knowledge of, from a country where he is incredibly marketable.
And maybe tell him about it. Today. Don’t keep him waiting while you wait and see if Miss Next Door will go on a date with you. Sign Jenson up and tell him you are sorry.
Soldato
oh and what the heck
pitlanetalk's page isn't on twitter anymore, as though it has been removed... they said they would remove their page if Alonso DOESN'T join Mclaren.
Please let it be true haha!
pitlanetalk's page isn't on twitter anymore, as though it has been removed... they said they would remove their page if Alonso DOESN'T join Mclaren.
Please let it be true haha!
Soldato
^^^ WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I apologise for being so easily mislead.... but woowwwww!!!!!
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
Nonsense story, this bit in particular
Just complete twaddle, Mclaren who spend millions a year and PAY JENSON £10+ million a year... aren't in a position to put Mclaren before an employee because their performance isn't great...... it's literally devoid of any logic.
Also this incessant way fans and pundits draw random links between companies and people because of some relationship they have no idea about.
Happens in football all the time, the other season it was people banging on about how a Belgian defender would chose Arsenal because another Belgian defender was already at Arsenal, he went to spurs, a direct rival. For all we know those two defenders hate each other, we have no idea if they are friends or work well together, just that a national coach picked them both to play in the same team.
Button worked with Honda previously, maybe they didn't like him, maybe they hated him, maybe they loved him..... massive corporation do not make choices based on a past relationship rather than current and future performance, not successful ones anyway.
Alonso left Mclaren in a way that few drivers leave, getting upset about not being treated as a number 1, becoming the less favoured driver, blackmailing his own team..... if we were to believe that past relationships mean anything then Alonso could never go back to Mclaren.
Despite zero evidence that these old relationships ever mean anything, and that people who hate each other can work together successfully, we still get this complete crap about how Button and Honda worked together previously thus..... something. He's hugely marketable in Japan because, he's got a Japanese girlfriend(or wife now, I can't remember). Yet thousands of famous people who can't speak a lick of Japanese and don't bang a Japanese bird manage to go there to sell products just fine.
Successful people are highly marketable, that is about as far as it goes in difficulty to market someone in any particular market.
Paying Magnussen maybe 1mil a year to get spanked silly by Alonso or pay Button 10+ mil a year to get spanked by Alonso, seems a pretty easy choice to me.
Just complete twaddle, Mclaren who spend millions a year and PAY JENSON £10+ million a year... aren't in a position to put Mclaren before an employee because their performance isn't great...... it's literally devoid of any logic.
Also this incessant way fans and pundits draw random links between companies and people because of some relationship they have no idea about.
Happens in football all the time, the other season it was people banging on about how a Belgian defender would chose Arsenal because another Belgian defender was already at Arsenal, he went to spurs, a direct rival. For all we know those two defenders hate each other, we have no idea if they are friends or work well together, just that a national coach picked them both to play in the same team.
Button worked with Honda previously, maybe they didn't like him, maybe they hated him, maybe they loved him..... massive corporation do not make choices based on a past relationship rather than current and future performance, not successful ones anyway.
Alonso left Mclaren in a way that few drivers leave, getting upset about not being treated as a number 1, becoming the less favoured driver, blackmailing his own team..... if we were to believe that past relationships mean anything then Alonso could never go back to Mclaren.
Despite zero evidence that these old relationships ever mean anything, and that people who hate each other can work together successfully, we still get this complete crap about how Button and Honda worked together previously thus..... something. He's hugely marketable in Japan because, he's got a Japanese girlfriend(or wife now, I can't remember). Yet thousands of famous people who can't speak a lick of Japanese and don't bang a Japanese bird manage to go there to sell products just fine.
Successful people are highly marketable, that is about as far as it goes in difficulty to market someone in any particular market.
Paying Magnussen maybe 1mil a year to get spanked silly by Alonso or pay Button 10+ mil a year to get spanked by Alonso, seems a pretty easy choice to me.
Soldato
Don't Honda have money to throw around though?
Caporegime
So.... is there any information to go with this reaction? I can't find anything other than this tweet from PitLaneTalk.
Soldato
^^^ That is what it will probably come down to. Money.
Soldato
BILD spoke to Eric Boullier, who finally made it public that Alonso didn't sign yet.
"Between Brazil and Abu Dhabi, we want a decision from Fernando. Otherwise we have to think about an alternative scenario."
"We had some good negotiations with him and he signaled to us that he would be a good fit here and that he would be in the mood for the job. At the same time, we want to find a long-term solution, so three years and not just one year deal. There's a lot ahead in the future of the team."
Pitlanetalk were adamant that he has already signed a deal, even so far back as Singapore... and that he'd signed a 2+1 year deal, so they have closed their account for that reason... but they only ever stated they'd close the account if Alonso wasn't heading to Mclaren as far as I can tell... and their last tweet seems to imply that he isn't going to Mclaren after all with the way it's been written.
Too much reading between the lines, I don't know what to think now, now I've heard he's in talks with his management to buy out Lotus!
"Between Brazil and Abu Dhabi, we want a decision from Fernando. Otherwise we have to think about an alternative scenario."
"We had some good negotiations with him and he signaled to us that he would be a good fit here and that he would be in the mood for the job. At the same time, we want to find a long-term solution, so three years and not just one year deal. There's a lot ahead in the future of the team."
Pitlanetalk were adamant that he has already signed a deal, even so far back as Singapore... and that he'd signed a 2+1 year deal, so they have closed their account for that reason... but they only ever stated they'd close the account if Alonso wasn't heading to Mclaren as far as I can tell... and their last tweet seems to imply that he isn't going to Mclaren after all with the way it's been written.
Too much reading between the lines, I don't know what to think now, now I've heard he's in talks with his management to buy out Lotus!