F1 2015 - Teams and Drivers - Who goes where?!

[El_Watcher]

Vettel is somehwere in the top 5 or so most successful drivers of all time, you don't do that by accident.

IMO, championship success is not a good gauge of how good you are as a race driver. If it were, Sterling Moss would be considered rubbish, Giles Villeneuve would be considered rubbish etc.
To be a great racing driver, you have to be able to adapt to whatever you are given as quickly as possible, and bring it to the front.
Alonso has done this consistently while at Ferrari.
Hamilton did it when he moved to Mercedes and for the first part of the year struggled with the different braking style, but by mid season he had won a race.
Vettel has not been able to adapt at all well to this seasons car, even though Ricciardo has shown it is competitive, so IMO, he is good, but is not great.

 

[FrankJH]

Yet before this year Ricciardo was expected to be another Webber at best - everyone was saying he was the safe choice, someone to collect a few points for the team, but not threaten the team leader over a season. He had done absolutely nothing to suggest he was going to beat Vettel, let alone trounce him.

So using more information, that makes Webber a truly awful driver (I mean, he couldn't even beat Vettel). Which makes Rosberg poor (Webber had the beating of him at Williams), Rosberg isn't quite as good as Hamilton, but good enough to drag Hamilton down to Webber's level. Hamilton was roughly the equal of Alonso in their season together, but Alonso is judged to be one of the best of all time. So in conclusion that makes Ricciardo probably the best driver to have walked the earth or any other planet.

It's got nothing to do with Vettel having other priorities (shown in pre-season), the engine regulations and removal of EBD not suiting him or anything. No, Ricciardo is just a God.

Christ, if all we used was data...

the RBR team was completely different with Webber and SV, and solidly around SV 100% of the time, the only reason Ricciado has had a look in is because of the completely different types of car (which of course Webber never got a chance to race), Im sure Ricciado would have been trounced just as badly if he had moved into RBR a season or two earlier.

Not being negative about Ricciardo at all, he has done fantastically well and when given a real chance has proven how adaptable he is to the new cars, but its also pretty daft to suggest everything is comparable to Webber's time at RBR.

SV has done well for the last four years having imo the best car on the grid over a season for majority of that time (ie Alonso in the RBR would have probably got even more race wins, and he flattered the much worse Ferrari for all the time he was there), but this year has to have been a complete shock to the system and his only real option was to move team / driver partner before he gets humiliated again next season in what is effectively his own team.

 

[JeditOjanen]

Vettel cruised around in by far the best car, in not the best car he looks positively awkward for the majority of the year. he didn't show great pace, he wasn't competitive with his team mate and he didn't look like a potential champion. Based on the actual driving this year if Vettel was actually a rookie alongside Ricciardo you would only say one looked a world class driver.

Vettel's success is down to a single factor: Adrian Newey was able to design the Red Bull in such a way that it had the functional equivalent of traction control. It was glued to the road and the drivers could put the hammer down earlier when exiting corners. Without that advantage, Vettel's driving style simply doesn't work.

 

[Janesy B]

Senna didn't win the WDC in a Toleman or Lotus, wasn't until he got into another of the most dominant F1 cars in history (McLaren MP4/4) until he got his first WDC, doesn't make him any less of a legend.

 

[JeditOjanen]

Senna didn't win the WDC in a Toleman or Lotus, wasn't until he got into another of the most dominant F1 cars in history (McLaren MP4/4) until he got his first WDC, doesn't make him any less of a legend.

Senna took dogs like the 1984 Toleman to multiple podium finishes. Vettel is in the only car to beat a Mercedes on track this year and he still can't achieve as much. Senna was a fierce competitor who would fight his way through any field. Vettel whines to his engineer that other drivers won't let him past.

Defend Vettel all you like, but regardless of the statistics the facts behind them are plain to see: if the car requires more driving skill than a Scalextric, Vettel can't handle it. I would not be at all surprised if he leaves Ferrari and F1 after a couple of years with no more wins - maybe even one year, if Raikkonen beats him.

 

[this_is_gav]

the RBR team was completely different with Webber and SV, and solidly around SV 100% of the time, the only reason Ricciado has had a look in is because of the completely different types of car (which of course Webber never got a chance to race), Im sure Ricciado would have been trounced just as badly if he had moved into RBR a season or two earlier.

Not being negative about Ricciardo at all, he has done fantastically well and when given a real chance has proven how adaptable he is to the new cars, but its also pretty daft to suggest everything is comparable to Webber's time at RBR.

SV has done well for the last four years having imo the best car on the grid over a season for majority of that time (ie Alonso in the RBR would have probably got even more race wins, and he flattered the much worse Ferrari for all the time he was there), but this year has to have been a complete shock to the system and his only real option was to move team / driver partner before he gets humiliated again next season in what is effectively his own team.

BUT WE CAN ONLY WORK WITH THE INFORMATION WE'VE GOT.

I was just having a go at Mr Jack for him using "information" only, rather than taking anything else into consideration. A less extreme example: Hill was a fairly average champion, but as a near-rookie he started beating Prost in the latter part of 1993. Does that reflect badly on Prost? No. He's still seen as a top driver and a 4-times champion who went head-to-head against Senna and gave him a bloody good battle most of the time, but he wasn't at his best at that point of his career - he might have utterly trounced Hill in 1994 had they continued into the new regulations. Probably not, but who knows?

 

[this_is_gav]

IMO, championship success is not a good gauge of how good you are as a race driver. If it were, Sterling Moss would be considered rubbish, Giles Villeneuve would be considered rubbish etc.
To be a great racing driver, you have to be able to adapt to whatever you are given as quickly as possible, and bring it to the front.

Gilles Villeneuve wasn't a great driver. He was a good driver for a top team, but it's his style and aggression which seems to have moulded him into some sort of great. Like a slightly more successful Alesi might have been seen in years to come.

 

[drunkenmaster]

IMO, championship success is not a good gauge of how good you are as a race driver. If it were, Sterling Moss would be considered rubbish, Giles Villeneuve would be considered rubbish etc.
To be a great racing driver, you have to be able to adapt to whatever you are given as quickly as possible, and bring it to the front.
Alonso has done this consistently while at Ferrari.
Hamilton did it when he moved to Mercedes and for the first part of the year struggled with the different braking style, but by mid season he had won a race.
Vettel has not been able to adapt at all well to this seasons car, even though Ricciardo has shown it is competitive, so IMO, he is good, but is not great.

The only thing I'd change is to say bring the car forward, not to the front. A great driver in a worse car might drag a car from 10th to 8th, you don't have to be getting on a podium to be a great driver.

Also worth pointing out that for Hamilton he both has won a race every season in his F1 career including 2009 when the Mclaren was painfully awful for most of the season, improved but still wasn't the best car, regardless of the early woeful part of the season of the later stronger part of the season you could see him making passes and moves that other drivers up and down the grid couldn't and dragging that car forward.


He also was good basically from the start last year. His first pole was 7 races before his first win, getting a podium in the 2nd and 3rd races. He didn't struggle with braking, he just preferred more responsive brakes which is a very different thing. The car just didn't have good tire wear and so it was a struggle for both Merc's to turn poles or great drivers into wins. Their wins came when the woeful tire wear was offset by RBR failures or specific tracks/conditions.

I do think great drivers will adapt to pretty much any car or format, just that Hamilton adapted to the Merc incredibly quickly as you might expect.

 

[Mr Jack]

I was just having a go at Mr Jack for him using "information" only, rather than taking anything else into consideration.

I'm amused to know what you'd like to use instead of information about the driver's performance? A feeling in your waters, perhaps? A reading from the entrails of a rat or do you prefer tea leaves? Perhaps you could toss coins to decide who you think is best?

A less extreme example: Hill was a fairly average champion, but as a near-rookie he started beating Prost in the latter part of 1993. Does that reflect badly on Prost? No. He's still seen as a top driver and a 4-times champion who went head-to-head against Senna and gave him a bloody good battle most of the time, but he wasn't at his best at that point of his career - he might have utterly trounced Hill in 1994 had they continued into the new regulations. Probably not, but who knows?

Oh, look an argument based on information, who'd have thought it!

 

[Skeeter]

Senna took dogs like the 1984 Toleman to multiple podium finishes...

Defend Vettel all you like, but regardless of the statistics the facts behind them are plain to see: if the car requires more driving skill than a Scalextric, Vettel can't handle it...

Vettel won his first race in a Toro Rosso, in the rain.

 

[Mr Jack]

Vettel won his first race in a Toro Rosso, in the rain.

In a truly stunning drive.

 

[this_is_gav]

I'm amused to know what you'd like to use instead of information about the driver's performance? A feeling in your waters, perhaps? A reading from the entrails of a rat or do you prefer tea leaves? Perhaps you could toss coins to decide who you think is best?

Sometimes you can look at a car and see how good the driver is driving it by how well its going, not by the lap times. Alonso in the Minardi. Mansell on one of his charges. Senna in the Toleman. Prost's effortlessness. Schumacher's rain ability. It's more obvious the further you go back in time, but what point is there in having Brundle sitting at the trackside in practice? He's watching how the car moves and how each driver is approaching that corner.

While ultimately it comes down to numbers, the only ones which matter are points at given times, and while Vettel's been comprehensively beaten by Ricciardo this year, he's never been beaten before that, and in four of those years he's beaten everybody.

It's up to you whether you choose to admire him or not, but there are few average champions. Some might be more deserving than others, but you don't win four of them by being merely decent, irrespective of who designs and builds the car.

Oh, look an argument based on information, who'd have thought it!

An argument which uses information to conflict itself, or look at something from another angle if you prefer.

 

[Mr Jack]

Sometimes you can look at a car and see how good the driver is driving it by how well its going, not by the lap times. Alonso in the Minardi. Mansell on one of his charges. Senna in the Toleman. Prost's effortlessness. Schumacher's rain ability. It's more obvious the further you go back in time, but what point is there in having Brundle sitting at the trackside in practice? He's watching how the car moves and how each driver is approaching that corner.

Which is, da-da-du-daa information.

While ultimately it comes down to numbers, the only ones which matter are points at given times, and while Vettel's been comprehensively beaten by Ricciardo this year, he's never been beaten before that, and in four of those years he's beaten everybody.

You appear to be confusing information with statistics.

It's up to you whether you choose to admire him or not, but there are few average champions. Some might be more deserving than others, but you don't win four of them by being merely decent, irrespective of who designs and builds the car.

When I say Vettel is overrated, I mean that he is far from the best driver on the grid and doesn't have the talent that the statistics suggest not that I think he's no better than, say, Sutil or Maldonado. I think Vettel earned his seat at Red Bull with his performance at Toro Rosso and given the right car he is peerless at putting together a race weekend. Where Webber repeatedly failed to deliver, Vettel was qualifying on pole, leading from the front with error-free lap after error-free lap and taking it home in first place.

 

[this_is_gav]

Which is, da-da-du-daa information.

Well, it's opinion, sometimes informed, sometimes less so.

You appear to be confusing information with statistics.

And how aren't statistics information? Ultimately championships are championships and little else matters if you win them (fairly), no?

When I say Vettel is overrated, I mean that he is far from the best driver on the grid and doesn't have the talent that the statistics suggest not that I think he's no better than, say, Sutil or Maldonado. I think Vettel earned his seat at Red Bull with his performance at Toro Rosso and given the right car he is peerless at putting together a race weekend. Where Webber repeatedly failed to deliver, Vettel was qualifying on pole, leading from the front with error-free lap after error-free lap and taking it home in first place.

That I won't argue too hard with. We rate him differently, but that in itself is fine.

But I also think he's been sub-par this year, not that Ricciardo has simply come in and "shattered his reputation". I don't think Ricciardo is a world beater, but he's started in Red Bull like one and I hope it continues. It's hard to argue he's risen to the occasion at Red Bull, but I think he's surprised even them. He showed little of this ruthless opportunism or level of performance in the Toro Rosso, and perhaps teams will re-evaluate Vergne's future prospects off the back of that.

A lot of the people who are slating Vettel now are the same who were saying he had to move to another team to truly prove himself. It seems he was always intending to do this at some point. Perhaps not this year, but maybe replacing Raikkonen or Rosberg in the coming few years. Maybe he had his heart set on it before this season started and it was one of the reasons his heart hasn't been in it.

Sadly I fear next year will be more of the same. If Raikkonen comes alive and matches or beats Vettel then it cements their opinions that Vettel is only above average. If Vettel beats him comprehensively, then it's because Raikkonen is on the wane. It'll be interesting, but I fear some will never rate him, no matter what he does or who he beats.

 

[sunama]

Alonso did get marginally beaten by Hamilton but Hamilton is one of the best drivers in F1 also, personally I think he's better than Alonso but it's pretty damn close either way.

The were matched on points.
Hamilton was ahead on countback (race wins).
Lets not forget, that this was the year when Alonso was no longer speaking to management. He was being marginlised to such an extent that he complained to the FIA that he felt McLaren would sabotage his title chase. FIA then placed an FIA official in Alonso's garage to ensure there was no funny business.

In Hungary, when Alonso qualified on pole (and would probably have gone on to win the race), he was penalised 5-6 places. Why? Because he allegedly held up his team-mate in qualifying, in the garage. This, I believe is unprecedented - perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong - where the FIA penalise 1 driver for blocking his own team-mate in the pits, during qualifying. Had Alonso "played the game", he'd have won the title. As he was young at the time, he had no idea how to play the political game and lost the title by 1 point.

In 2010, when he joined Ferrari, he learned how to play the political game and immediately ensured that he was the No.1 driver and Massa was No.2. He managed to win the political game within 3-5 races of joining the team and Massa knew the score.

An F1 driver is not rated on outright speed only, but a whole bunch of other attributes which can help him win the title.

MSc, Prost (and now) Alonso are all top players in the political arena. Hamilton is fast, but that's all he has going for him. He lacks intelligence and this will hold him back if he ever raced against a top driver like Senna, Prost, Alonso or MSC (1st career).

For those doubting Vettel - you don't win 4 titles in a row, with a whole bunch of records/stats by being average or above average. I rate Vettel only behind Alonso and Hamilton. Why was Vettel perform so poorly this year? I dont think even he knows.

Ricciardo is a bit of a wild card. He has had 1 great season. He has defeated Vettel comfortably. If he could do this 3 seasons in a row, it would be difficult to argue against him being a top line driver.

So, who do I rate as the top drivers (in order):
Alonso (super consistent, always beats his team-mate and has humiliated Kimi, who many rated highly before 2014. Give Alonso the fastest car and he will win the title)
Vettel (4 time WDC, multiple records, including winning 9 races in a row which is unbelievable. Give him the fastest car in F1 and he will win the title)
Hamilton (F1's fastest driver over a single lap, but is emotionally unstable and as we saw in 2012, wont necessarily deliver a title win, even in the fastest car).

 

[sunama]

When I say Vettel is overrated, I mean that he is far from the best driver on the grid

Hmm.
Vettel was voted as the best driver in F1, by team principals in 2009, 2011, 2013.
Sorry buddy, but I'm going to have to side with team principals on this one.
There is only 1 driver who I rate higher than Vettel.
And if you think Hamilton is better - he has never been voted by team principals as the best.
For me, Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton. Hamilton is faster though.

 

[FrankJH]

Sadly I fear next year will be more of the same. If Raikkonen comes alive and matches or beats Vettel then it cements their opinions that Vettel is only above average. If Vettel beats him comprehensively, then it's because Raikkonen is on the wane. It'll be interesting, but I fear some will never rate him, no matter what he does or who he beats.

Sorry to say, but I just cant see Kimi doing anything in next year's Ferrari, no matter how good/bad it is. As to whether SV beats him or not, its pretty irrelevant if its a bad car (and Im not sure where the "magic" is going to come from considering how bad the cars have been for a few years now - even considering the shake up that's happening now and over the winter)

 

[Skeeter]

Hmm.
Vettel was voted as the best driver in F1, by team principals in 2009, 2011, 2013.
Sorry buddy, but I'm going to have to side with team principals on this one.
There is only 1 driver who I rate higher than Vettel.
And if you think Hamilton is better - he has never been voted by team principals as the best.
For me, Vettel is a better driver than Hamilton. Hamilton is faster though.

To be fair, that's probably due to who they asked. Hamilton has shown he can be a pain in the butt to manage, so it's not surprising that team principles aren't throwing praises at him.

 

[Duke]

Vettel made the best of the trick stuff Red Bull had developed highly such as blown diffuser, so he was certainly the best at the time in those years. Take that away and he has struggled to adapt. He is a top driver but wouldn't rate him above Alonso or Hamilton, probably about the same. With Rosberg, Kimi, Webber and Button after them (too early for Ricciardo and Bottas).

 

[JRS]

I'm just gonna quote this. Because I genuinely cannot believe that anyone clever enough to remember how to breathe in and out has actually typed this one.

Gilles Villeneuve wasn't a great driver.

I mean....*sigh* nope, not even going there.