F1 2015 - Teams and Drivers - Who goes where?!

sunama said:
The were matched on points.
Hamilton was ahead on countback (race wins).
Lets not forget, that this was the year when Alonso was no longer speaking to management. He was being marginlised to such an extent that he complained to the FIA that he felt McLaren would sabotage his title chase. FIA then placed an FIA official in Alonso's garage to ensure there was no funny business.

In Hungary, when Alonso qualified on pole (and would probably have gone on to win the race), he was penalised 5-6 places. Why? Because he allegedly held up his team-mate in qualifying, in the garage. This, I believe is unprecedented - perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong - where the FIA penalise 1 driver for blocking his own team-mate in the pits, during qualifying. Had Alonso "played the game", he'd have won the title. As he was young at the time, he had no idea how to play the political game and lost the title by 1 point.
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I'm not sure what the point is here, like Rosberg when a competitive driver was taking points away from him he reacted by cheating. He did multiple extremely dodgy things while at Mclaren and his time at Renault isn't exactly blemish free either.

At Hungary he was behind Hamilton at every stage, then went faster in the final lap when he, just like Rosberg, sabotaged Hamilton's final qualifying lap. As it's described and matches roughly what I remember, they both came in for tires, after releasing Alonso with Hamilton stuck behind him waiting to pit he stood still for 10 seconds, he crossed the line to put in the final lap which won him pole with 2 seconds spare and Hamilton crossed the line 5 seconds too late. hamilton had the beating of him and Alonso cheated.

Likewise he finished 44 seconds behind Hamilton in that race, without cheating in qualifying Hamilton would almost certainly have won pole and judging by race pace, would have beaten Alonso quite comfortably, with the pace Kimi showed it's unlikely Alonso would have gotten 2nd either.

As for demanding no.1 status since then, almost everyone has basically rumoured at Ferrari basically never giving Massa, or now Kimi, the same quality of car. As such, smashing a team mate with an unfair car advantage, or requiring an unfair car advantage to win really doesn't scream brilliance to me.

I think Alonso is an exceptional driver but when it came down to Hamilton vs ALonso, Hamilton did exceptionally well and Alonso responded like a little girl. Hamilton didn't but almost certainly could have gotten no.1 status at Mercedes. Instead he went there to compete fairly with a competitor in an equal car and has spanked Rosberg for two years in every metric that matters. Rosberg has cheated multiple times and in significant ways on several occasions in an attempt to head off Hamilton.

Cheating your team mate out of an equal car, cheating in qualifying and cheating to win races doesn't for me add up to gaming the system and requiring politics to win titles, it sounds to me like drivers who panic when they are getting beaten, nothing else.

EIther way, I wasn't calling ALonso crap, someone decided to say that Alonso must be crap because a rookie beat him comparing it to Vettel being beaten by Riccy, I pointed out they finished on equal points. If ALonso had a few more or a few less points wouldn't matter. The closeness of the two drivers isn't remotely comparable to how thoroughly Vettel has been spanked this season. Hamilton "won" the season over Alonso but it was incredibly close. Had ALonso not been penalised(he absolutely should have been, he flat out cheated and it wasn't accidental holding up in a slow corner, this was Schumacher/Rosberg at Monaco premeditated and calculated cheating to screw someone, he could and really should have been banned from the race entirely) and had he had 10 more points, it wouldn't have changed how well both drivers raced over the season. Vettel could have fluked one win and been 25 points closer, it wouldn't change that in 90% of every race he has failed to show pace or an ability to handle the car.
 
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JRS said:
I'm just gonna quote this. Because I genuinely cannot believe that anyone clever enough to remember how to breathe in and out has actually typed this one.

I mean....*sigh* nope, not even going there.
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He wasn't. He had some great drives, and was great to watch, but he was too inconsistent to be considered one of the very top drivers in history. Perhaps time he would have been up there, but at the point we lost him, he wasn't one of them in my opinion.

Like I say, a luckier Alesi would be considered in the same light.
 
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excluding this year, Vettel had the best car for the previous 4 seasons. He won the title with each one and as a team won constructors title 4 times in a row. Give a driver an opportunity and thats the most they can do?

I still believe Hamilton is faster though. Would've been interesting to see Alonso in the RB
 
In one of those years (2012 maybe?) the McLaren was widely considered to be the best car.

In 2010 Vettel only lead the championship once, at the end of the final race.
 
drunkenmaster said:
I'm not sure what the point is here, like Rosberg when a competitive driver was taking points away from him he reacted by cheating. He did multiple extremely dodgy things while at Mclaren and his time at Renault isn't exactly blemish free either.

At Hungary he was behind Hamilton at every stage, then went faster in the final lap when he, just like Rosberg, sabotaged Hamilton's final qualifying lap. As it's described and matches roughly what I remember, they both came in for tires, after releasing Alonso with Hamilton stuck behind him waiting to pit he stood still for 10 seconds, he crossed the line to put in the final lap which won him pole with 2 seconds spare and Hamilton crossed the line 5 seconds too late. hamilton had the beating of him and Alonso cheated.

Likewise he finished 44 seconds behind Hamilton in that race, without cheating in qualifying Hamilton would almost certainly have won pole and judging by race pace, would have beaten Alonso quite comfortably, with the pace Kimi showed it's unlikely Alonso would have gotten 2nd either.

As for demanding no.1 status since then, almost everyone has basically rumoured at Ferrari basically never giving Massa, or now Kimi, the same quality of car. As such, smashing a team mate with an unfair car advantage, or requiring an unfair car advantage to win really doesn't scream brilliance to me.

I think Alonso is an exceptional driver but when it came down to Hamilton vs ALonso, Hamilton did exceptionally well and Alonso responded like a little girl. Hamilton didn't but almost certainly could have gotten no.1 status at Mercedes. Instead he went there to compete fairly with a competitor in an equal car and has spanked Rosberg for two years in every metric that matters. Rosberg has cheated multiple times and in significant ways on several occasions in an attempt to head off Hamilton.

Cheating your team mate out of an equal car, cheating in qualifying and cheating to win races doesn't for me add up to gaming the system and requiring politics to win titles, it sounds to me like drivers who panic when they are getting beaten, nothing else.

EIther way, I wasn't calling ALonso crap, someone decided to say that Alonso must be crap because a rookie beat him comparing it to Vettel being beaten by Riccy, I pointed out they finished on equal points. If ALonso had a few more or a few less points wouldn't matter. The closeness of the two drivers isn't remotely comparable to how thoroughly Vettel has been spanked this season. Hamilton "won" the season over Alonso but it was incredibly close. Had ALonso not been penalised(he absolutely should have been, he flat out cheated and it wasn't accidental holding up in a slow corner, this was Schumacher/Rosberg at Monaco premeditated and calculated cheating to screw someone, he could and really should have been banned from the race entirely) and had he had 10 more points, it wouldn't have changed how well both drivers raced over the season. Vettel could have fluked one win and been 25 points closer, it wouldn't change that in 90% of every race he has failed to show pace or an ability to handle the car.
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You are aware that it was Hamilton that triggered all the stuff by ignoring team orders? Which was why Alonso sat there in the pits. Still Alonso should have been the bigger man. Hamilton did great that year, though it's worth pointing out that Alonso and Kimi had come from Michelin tyres, and didn't always get on with the Bridgestones.
 
Skeeter said:
In one of those years (2012 maybe?) the McLaren was widely considered to be the best car.

In 2010 Vettel only lead the championship once, at the end of the final race.
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You could argue that in 2012 McLaren threw it away with unreliability and extremely poor pitstops.

2010 Ferrari screwed up by covering the wrong Red Bull, it's also worth noting in 2010 Mark Webber was very close to Vettel, it was only after this that the blown diffuser really took off and gelled with Vettels driving style. There was also a Silverstone race in 2012 (iirc?) where they drastically limited the blown diffuser, Alonso won and Webber was quite a bit closer to Vettel than 'normal' by then.

2011 and 2013 the Red Bull was the class of the field, at times more so than the Mercedes has been this year, like 2 seconds a lap at Korea with ease.

Vettel is a very good driver, easily in the top-5 of current drivers, but I think 4 world championships is quite flattering for his ability. But fair play to him, it was right time and right car and he went out and won, over and over again, much like Button's championship they're all still well deserved.
 
What's laughable is they don't already know. Is Whitmarsh back in charge? They have all the data, typical Mclaren dithering. Such a shame there isn't somewhere half decent for Button and Alonso to go :(
 
dannyjo22 said:
What's laughable is they don't already know. Is Whitmarsh back in charge? They have all the data, typical Mclaren dithering. Such a shame there isn't somewhere half decent for Button and Alonso to go :(
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That's my point, it's a no brainer. Button's ruthlessly destroyed Magnusson this year and thanks to him and him only have saved themselves a lot of money, literally millions upon millions of pounds by staying ahead of Force India.
 
Pretty amusing people comparing JB with a first year rookie Kmag and saying how much better he is (would be very concerned for JB if he was not) . JB was smoked as a first year rookie and as a second year noob.
 
smr said:
Apparantly the Mclaren board are going to decide whether Jenson or Kevin stays. It's actually laughable writing that sentence.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/24/jenson-button-fate-mclaren-board-meeting-f1
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Its less laughable when you add "...on a multi year contract" to the end of it. McLaren aren't interested in 1 year deals, and neither should they be.

I can totally understand why they might take the lower driver for many years over the better one for a single year.
 
Skeeter said:
Its less laughable when you add "...on a multi year contract" to the end of it. McLaren aren't interested in 1 year deals, and neither should they be.

I can totally understand why they might take the lower driver for many years over the better one for a single year.
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Alonso needs a team mate who can take points off the other drivers to have a shot at the WDC. They also need a driver who can actually score points, not someone who decides to go bumper car racing on the first lap and finish 12th.

They also need someone who can help develop a car and can grow a better rapport with the new engineers etc.

So I can't "totally understand it"
 
smr said:
Alonso needs a team mate who can take points off the other drivers to have a shot at the WDC. They also need a driver who can actually score points, not someone who decides to go bumper car racing on the first lap and finish 12th.

They also need someone who can help develop a car and can grow a better rapport with the new engineers etc.

So I can't "totally understand it"
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You cant understand it because your are infatuated by some one well passed their prime.
 
smr said:
Alonso needs a team mate who can take points off the other drivers to have a shot at the WDC. They also need a driver who can actually score points, not someone who decides to go bumper car racing on the first lap and finish 12th.

They also need someone who can help develop a car and can grow a better rapport with the new engineers etc.

So I can't "totally understand it"
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I think they will pick KM because he is cheaper and then put the money to pay for Alonso.
Well that's unless Button wants to take a pay drop.
 
Millwall.FC said:
Pretty amusing people comparing JB with a first year rookie Kmag and saying how much better he is (would be very concerned for JB if he was not) . JB was smoked as a first year rookie and as a second year noob.
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Yep and Williams did the right thing, farmed him out and carry on with the best available at that time. Big teams don't need to worry about the future and bringing drivers along. They build the best cars, pay the required wages and the best drivers come to them.

Of course we don't know what he want's wage wise or how insulting an offer Mclaren might be making to get rid of him but being able to say he turned them down. If mclaren build a mega car over the next two years they can just hire whoever they like, they don't need a long term plan to replace Button or Alonso.

Lastly you don't build a driver by pairing him with Alonso. We used to hear that BS all the time with Schumachers team mates, one for the future to learn from the master. In truth they are little more than whipping boys that tow the line. Getting beaten soundly by button then Alonso for a couple of years is hardly going to see us with the next world champion. Alonso will retire and they will just go with another top driver.
 
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