Soldato
Oh dear McLaren what has become of you
F1 2015 - Teams and Drivers - Who goes where?!
- Thread starter ~Mike~
- Start date
Soldato
Ron Dennis losing his marbles and returning?
He was great first time around but now it's just about money and securing his retirement fund...
If Magnussen was any good - while no one should expect him to have beaten Button's amount of points - it wasnt unrealistic to expect Kevin to be a lot closer in points (in the same car) in the final standings - maybe even more so given how comparatively bad JB is at quali (ie KM should have benefitted further in these races than he did)
edit - In regards to the McLaren situation, with an as yet untested (in a race) engine - and with how far ahead Merc were this year (and how much they are expected to gain over the winter), Im not sure how anyone can "expect" to win over the next two seasons - especially from a car that didnt win at all this season.
Even the team (Williams) who was probably the closest over the whole year to beating Merc (even if Williams were behind RBR in the WCC) never won a race this year.
Best guess RBR will still win a few, I would hope Williams would get a bit more competitive too but unless Merc really **** ** they will still be winning easily the most races (and the only chance I can see is an even worse reliability record allowing anyone else into the championship - unless honda can pull a blinder, but even one or two race wins would be a minor miracle).
From 5-10 years ago wanting Ron to take full ownership, I cant think of anyone worse for McLaren at the moment from the sounds of things coming out
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Associate
Yep.
So much for McLaren buying in the best talent, sounds like Ron is just trying to secure Danish funding.
In fact I think there should be an end-of-year auction where all the rich boys bid for F1 seats for the coming season.
Sigh.
Don
To be honest, the longer this goes on, the more I think that Button might actually get the seat 
Soldato
I can only call 'em as I see 'em.
He had a championship-capable car in '07, and lost his head. He gets chased out of the team by a rookie (albeit a pretty bloody good one, but still), and has to spend a couple of years in a midfield Renault because no-one half decent particularly felt like breaking the contracts that they had with their drivers. And then he joins Ferrari (remember, the team that gets ALL the breaks from officialdom according to you
), and still comes up short. Hell, the warning signs were there in 2006 when he started to wobble towards the end of the season and go all Diva Mode™ about how Fisichella wasn't helping him and how he felt alone in the Renault team. It just sort-of feels as though he's a spent force, with too many years to try and roll back to get to true title-winning form, and all that's going to happen next season is a bit more Hamilton-Merc domination.But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the McLaren-Honda combo will be good next year and play to his strengths. Maybe it'll even be so good that Kevin Magnussen could win a race in it.
Time will tell.
To think, they (the fans) including Sky F1 team were criticising Lewis for it.
Its totally fair.
When you are top line driver, you show your speed immediately by out qualifying his team-mate. Not after 3 races. Or 5 races. Or 20 races. In your very first race you show something.
Drivers rarely get faster with experience.
MSc - he was immediately fast. IIRC Jordan used him in qualifying for 1 race. He learnt the Spa circuit on a bicycle as he had zero experience. Flavio saw his pace and immediately signed him up to Bennetton for the next race. He won his first race, in his first full season for Bennetton, against a Williams car which at times was 2.5s/lap faster than everybody else! Did KMag ever get close to beating a (fully functional) Merc?
Senna - he joined Toleman and was immediately showing his pace. He was leading (Alain Prost) at the Monaco GP when it was red flagged.
Hamilton - first season in F1 and he matches Alonso's points total. And this is Alonso we are talking about. Alonso, when he joined McLaren, never expected a rookie to be able to get anywhere near him.
...you get the point.
Soldato
Indeed if even glances back, he would have difficulty stifling the laughter.
I agree in 2007, he had no idea how to handle the politics.
He solved this when he joined Ferrari by immediately getting the entire team behind him.
he should've won in 2007 and 2008 (in a McLaren), but he messed up.
Very bad move...but again, this was simply because of political errors at McLaren. At Ferrari he would learn to play the game differently.
And then he joins Ferrari (remember, the team that gets ALL the breaks from officialdom according to you
We saw that he was in a car consistently 0.5s-1s/lap slower than the RBR car which was a marvel of engineering. While there, he showed that he was the only driver in F1, who could challenge the RBR in a considerably slower car. McLaren had a great car in 2012 and Vettel spanked both their drivers. Alonso also beat them. This was the year, where in my estimation, Hamilton fell.
In his early years, he behaved like a spoilt brat. No doubt about it. But for me, in 2014, he is most complete driver I have seen in a very long while. If we took the best drivers over the last 30 years, we'd include Prost, Senna and MSc. The 4th name would be Alonso.
That's cruel.
McLaren will be okay. They have huge resources that few teams have.
Their attention to detail is incredible and it looks like winning will become the priority in 2015. They are hiring & firing people in quite an aggressive manner (which Merc were doing a year earlier) and I doubt that Alonso will be in the mood to play happy families (a concept which Whitmarsh embraced).
With regards to their drivers - they already have Alonso (he is their prize possession). The No.2 driver appears to be totally expendable, so they feel they can make KMag/Button wait. KMag has nowhere else to go - he is awful and no other team is trying to sign him. Button is retiring - so the same applies.
If it comes to it, they'll probably ask another rookie from their young driver program to partner Alonso. They really are not fussed about their No.2 driver. All their eggs are in Honda and Alonso's basket.
Soldato
What faff. Of course they are bothered about their no 2 driver hence the reason theyre the only team without a lineup. The deliberation is becoming a bore. Also you shouldnt forget that alonso is only a year younger than button and its been said he has multiple years ahead in f1.
It is purported wide and far that button is one of the most physically fit and athletic drivers on the grid. Competing in iron man triathalons is no mean feat.
He hasnt said anywhere that he wants to retire. He could go on driving until hes 40 if he wanted to, or at least for another 3-4 years. The cars are physically much much less demanding than the mansell era where he wrestled with the weight of the v10s aged 39-40.
Button wouldnt give alonso an easy time, just as he didnt give hamilton an easy time from 2010-12, outscoring him along the way and leading him to have a meltdown in 2011 when he gave him an utter thumping and easily dispatched him.
Alonso is probably the most complete driver on the grid but button is no cakewalk and thats probably half the reason on the long and painful deliberations... even though alonso has said to journalists that he wants button.
The chief reason they are taking so long though is about money and power imo... dennis wants more control meaning he needs more money and a hefty sponsorship. The deadline is mid january apparantly so this could go on for weeks. Hopefully not though.
Found it unbelievable yesterday that Button and Magnussen were doing PR stuff for a McLaren sponsor in their race suits, while a bunch of fools in other suits were sat around a table dithering and failing by committee.
It's only JBs desperation to stay in F1 that's keeping him there now, if his pride took over he'd be sticking 2 fingers up and be off to WEC already. I'm sure that's what his Dad would be telling him :/
It's only JBs desperation to stay in F1 that's keeping him there now, if his pride took over he'd be sticking 2 fingers up and be off to WEC already. I'm sure that's what his Dad would be telling him :/
Caporegime
- Joined
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He's staying because there is a big pay packet on the line, nothing more or less. They owe him no loyalty, nor him them. They are his biggest potential salary he can make and that is what he cares about. The team paid him for his services, they didn't give him 100k a year and rely on his kindness to stay with them.
I really don't get why anyone thinks it's more complicated than that. People like to instil their own drama into everything, "Button worked with Honda... so they'll want him there", based off random made up things. Honda may have hated Button, it's completely unknown but people make these statements. Alonso supposedly said he'd prefer Button... but firstly they seem friendly and secondly, in no sport anywhere do people go out of their way to be unfriendly or badmouth people as it can hurt future relationships. What's he supposed to say when asked if he'd like Button in the team, he could believe Button is a crap driver, but if he says that and Button ends up being his team mate?
99% of opinions of other people within the sport you compete in are some level of complementary because anything else would be stupid.
Button wants the biggest amount of cash and the lifestyle that goes with F1, Mclaren are trying to get the most cash they can. These teams are chasing money, not success, as are almost all sports stars, fans just romanticise the rest.
it's the same reason test drivers choose a pay packet as a test driver and barely being a racer in F1, they get to hang out in the paddock, party with rich people, get paid more to test drive a car than they could get racing elsewhere.
It's unbelievable that two people being paid a large salary are doing their jobs still, really?
I really don't get why anyone thinks it's more complicated than that. People like to instil their own drama into everything, "Button worked with Honda... so they'll want him there", based off random made up things. Honda may have hated Button, it's completely unknown but people make these statements. Alonso supposedly said he'd prefer Button... but firstly they seem friendly and secondly, in no sport anywhere do people go out of their way to be unfriendly or badmouth people as it can hurt future relationships. What's he supposed to say when asked if he'd like Button in the team, he could believe Button is a crap driver, but if he says that and Button ends up being his team mate?
99% of opinions of other people within the sport you compete in are some level of complementary because anything else would be stupid.
Button wants the biggest amount of cash and the lifestyle that goes with F1, Mclaren are trying to get the most cash they can. These teams are chasing money, not success, as are almost all sports stars, fans just romanticise the rest.
it's the same reason test drivers choose a pay packet as a test driver and barely being a racer in F1, they get to hang out in the paddock, party with rich people, get paid more to test drive a car than they could get racing elsewhere.
It's unbelievable that two people being paid a large salary are doing their jobs still, really?
Soldato
I'm afraid I'm not sure I do, are you saying every potential F1 driver needs to be compared to Schumacher's and Senna's stats to be deemed worthy?
In a time when there is such limited testing I think it's perhaps a little prudent to give drivers time to develop.
Button himself got beat in his first season by Ralf Schumacher, does that mean he shouldn't have been given any more chances? Because he couldn't live up to Senna's aggressiveness or Schumacher's domination?
Alonso was beaten in the standings in his first season by Tarso Marques who drove 3 less races, wow he must be rubbish he's lucky he's been given the chances he has...
Looking at nothing but stats and figures isn't the best as its not difficult to twist things around.
I'm not trying to say that Magnussen deserves the seat over Button (personally I think Button has done more than enough to warrant the seat) but I think it's a shame to see people on these forums so quick to write off drivers or try their best to put drivers down as they are competing against their preferred or favourite drivers... If anything proving one driver is complete **** does nothing but make the driver they are rooting for look worse
Soldato
What utter tosh, he took a massive pay cut to stay in F1 with Brawn before having any idea what the car was like, could've been a bang of nails again like the Honda largely was.
He also paid for all his own flights to and flew economy class to get to all the races. If you'd actually been paying attention recently you'll have heard the line "I just want to drive in Formula 1, that's what I love doing" over and over again.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...es-15million-pay-cut-help-troubled-Honda.html
"Jenson Button will give up at least £15million after volunteering for a massive pay cut to help save his Formula One career.
The Honda driver has torn up his £24m three-year deal, accepting £9m instead to help out the troubled team. He also agreed to pay the travel and hotel costs incurred by himself and his entourage which could well exceed £250,000 over the course of the 17-race season."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1/jenson-button-takes-2m-pay-432056
"Jenson Button's former boss last night insisted the world champion has taken a £2million PAY CUT to join Lewis Hamilton at McLaren.
And despite his admiration for Button, Mercedes GP chief Nick Fry says the 29-year-old's switch is not a rational one.
"There is bravery and there is stupidity and we will only find out which it is next year," declared CEO Fry.
"We believe we made Jenson a good offer - one that was significantly more than he is being paid at McLaren. Everyone knows we have enormous respect for Jenson. He's an amazing racing driver. But we are all mystified by this decision."
http://www.f1reader.com/news/button-money-no-issue-in-f1-future-110619
"Whether I'm racing here or somewhere else, I will do it because I love it,” Button said. "Naturally I still want to earn money because I feel I have achieved and I feel I should get paid for what I do in an F1 car or a racing car, and for what I bring to a team. But I'm not a driver that takes the p***, and I will race somewhere even I'm if not getting the big bucks like a few drivers who are out there. "
So.... come again?
Caporegime
- Joined
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He was paid off to leave his contract from a team that... weren't actually competing any more, I can't find out precisely how much he made in 2009, and he took a bigger money offer from Mclaren rather than stay under Brawn at the newly formed Mercedes so.... taking £10mil pay off for nothing rather than fighting to stay under contract to a team that doesn't actually compete in F1 any more doesn't really seem like a massive financial burden.
He also had an in depth knowledge of the effort put into the 2009 car and knew the team sacrificed 2008 to make the 2009 car. He knew it was going to be exceptionally competitive, then after winning the title he leveraged this into a huge deal at Mclaren who were paying more than Mercedes were offering him.
You're using numbers as absolute proof from the stories you want to believe because they paint the picture you want, there are many sources that all have different numbers.
The second link says he took a pay cut but that suggests it's real. Other sources say he was on around 8mil and got a 2mil INCREASE at Mclaren.
So he was on a 24mil 3 year deal, and Honda paid him 10mil of it to cancel it, he then got paid however much in 2009 for a car he knew had a shot at being a title winning car with huge huge development put into it, which any driver knows would mean a hugely strong bargaining position for a contract. He immediately left and most sources I can see all suggest he was paid more at Mclaren than Brawn offered.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-ndash-for-half-hamiltons-salary-1823049.html
just one of the many saying Brawn were offering 4.5mil and Mclaren were offering around 8mil.
The numbers change everywhere, the history of the sport suggests one thing, if there are no other offers you take whatever is offered, if there are multiple offers you take the highest pay unless there is a stand out car or reason to believe you have a title shot which may effect that decision.
Fact is that Mclaren massively outspent Merc in 2009, 2010 and 2011, only in the last few years has Merc pushed up their spending back to genuinely top team levels. Thus, is it likely a team spending ball park half what Mclaren did offered more money... the chances are slim to none. Chances of a big spending Mclaren offering more money for a new champion... ridiculous high to certain.