F1 Testing 2010

sunama said:
What advantage would the other teams get if they realise that the McLaren, say, is 1s/lap faster than they are? There isnt anything they can do about it, unless you are suggesting that rival teams are holding back on purpose and if they see the McLaren going 1s/lap faster than their own car, they will suddenly release a "secret" part which they were originally holding back (on purpose), so that they don't get beaten so badly.

At all times, teams are looking to make their car go as fast as possible and working their hardest to make this happen. Seeing a McLaren go 1s/lap faster than a Ferrari say, will not make Ferrari suddenly go faster or work harder.

For the above reason, my belief is that it doesnt make any difference if McLaren (or any other team), shows their true pace. In fact, it is in the best interest of any given team, to carry out their tests/laps, without attempting to hide their performance, as it is quite possibe that this strategy will hinder their own development.
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If one top team shows their true pace too early on in testing, it gives the other teams longer to fix the deficit in speed. So if McLaren are theoretically say 1 sec/lap faster which they show in the very first test, it gives the other the whole pre season testing to find the extra speed. It is always easier to make up the deficit than to extend the advantage as shown with Brawn GP last year. The others caught them up & in fact overtook them by the end of the season in outright pace.

If the McLaren (or whoever) shows their true pace (theoretically 1 sec/lap) at the final test for example, it means they have a bigger advantage for longer as the others won't have time to develop new bits before the 1st GP. As we know if you have the advantage come race weekend, you are more likely to gain maximum points.

This then leads to the fact that testing is over so then you have to develop new parts without real time testing so simulator only or use the GP to test which is risky if it backfires. Added to that that the teams are massively disrupted when the season begins as they are constantly travelling so bits have to be flown round the world from the factory.
 
Ezee84 said:
If one top team shows their true pace too early on in testing, it gives the other teams longer to fix the deficit in speed. So if McLaren are theoretically say 1 sec/lap faster which they show in the very first test, it gives the other the whole pre season testing to find the extra speed.
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So, what you are saying is that a team (Ferrari, say) will work harder if they see another team (McLaren, say), 1s/lap faster than them? And that if no other team is ahead of Ferrari then they would simply sit on their hands and wait till another team develops a car which is considerably faster than theirs.

I just don't buy that. If McLaren are 1s/lap faster than Ferrari and McLaren showed this in the very first test, unless McLaren are using a special part, Ferrari will not suddenly find that extra 1s/lap, before the 1st race of the season. This theory only works if Ferrari would otherwise be holding back and waiting to for another team to go faster than them.

Ezee84 said:
It is always easier to make up the deficit than to extend the advantage as shown with Brawn GP last year.
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I'm not sure about this one.

Ezee84 said:
The others caught them up & in fact overtook them by the end of the season in outright pace.
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Indeed the others did catch and pass BrawnGP. One of the big reasons for this was the double diffuser. When the other teams discovered this "special part", they all got in on the act and fitted their own cars with this part. My belief is that had BrawnGP not existed, the other teams would've developed the double diffuser anyway and developed in exactly the same way that they did in 2009 (though now we are talking alternate realities, which we don't want to get in to).

Another reason for BrawnGP getting caught and passed was due to the fact that BrawnGP did not have the resources which the likes of McLaren and RedBull had. Had it have been McLaren or Ferrari who were the fastest during the first few races of 2009, I'm confident that they would've maintained their advantage over the rest of the field, throughout the year.

Ezee84 said:
If the McLaren (or whoever) shows their true pace (theoretically 1 sec/lap) at the final test for example, it means they have a bigger advantage for longer as the others won't have time to develop new bits before the 1st GP. As we know if you have the advantage come race weekend, you are more likely to gain maximum points.

This then leads to the fact that testing is over so then you have to develop new parts without real time testing so simulator only or use the GP to test which is risky if it backfires. Added to that that the teams are massively disrupted when the season begins as they are constantly travelling so bits have to be flown round the world from the factory.
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Again, this argument assumes that the chasing pack are sitting back, doing nothing and are only spurred in to developing their cars when they see another car 1s/lap (or similar), faster than their own car.
 
bloody hell sunama are you still banging on about "no team would ever sandbag" ?

ferrari comes out at the first test flat out with the full bahrain aeropackage, absolutely destroys the laptimes of every team around them.

the other teams keep looking at the ferrari car studying it to see where this extra speed is likely to be coming from.

the other teams find out and try to implement there own take on it, just like double diffusers, ferrari now have lost an advantage they could have kept secret until the first race as everyone will already have copied them before the season officially gets under way.
 
arknor said:
bloody hell sunama are you still banging on about "no team would ever sandbag" ?

ferrari comes out at the first test flat out with the full bahrain aeropackage, absolutely destroys the laptimes of every team around them.

the other teams keep looking at the ferrari car studying it to see where this extra speed is likely to be coming from.

the other teams find out and try to implement there own take on it, just like double diffusers, ferrari now have lost an advantage they could have kept secret until the first race as everyone will already have copied them before the season officially gets under way.
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Precisely this, not sure why he hasn't grasped this yet.

Ohh and sunama, Brawn GP were not the only team to have a double diffuser at the start of last year, they just happened to be winning races at the start. There were a couple of other teams with double diffusers, perhaps not as effective or as good an overall aerodynamic package to begin with though.
 
It's obviously a balance between testing as close to the final package as possible whilst still keeping some things back for the races proper.

What would be the point in testing a car for weeks only to significantly change the car last minute and potentially invalidate all the collected data?

Barring any team suddenly realising they've missed out a big trick (such as last years slotted diffuser, brawns complex front wing endplates etc.) it's largely going to be relatively modest aero refinements between now and the first race (likely revised front wings and amended but not radically different diffuser).

Perhaps one or two teams have been solely testing their mechanical packages and tyre wear thus far, and may surprise with a more radical aero package come the Barcelona test, but that would be a huge risk if the new package didn't work as expected.
 
All the teams work as hard as possible. Lets get that clear. However, when you find out another team is quicker than you, the employees do work even harder & later at the factory to find ways of making up tenths of a second. Lewis Hamilton referred to it an awful lot last year if you cast your mind back & Michael Schumacher cut short his holiday one year to work with Ferrari to produce a better car so the employees clearly do work even harder if needs be.

Clearly it is easier to catch up than maintain an advantage. What facts do you have to suggest otherwise?

If it wasn't then how come every year we always see when one team has an advantage it gradually gets wiped out. The teams doing the catching can copy the lead teams aero designs for one (double diffuser as an example). It's easier to copy what you can see than try to find a new way of designing something. Not just the likes of the new diffuser as the Brawn last year wasn't just quick because of that. They were quick because of radical changes to the rules that caught the big teams napping. Also how do youy explain McLaren being the worst car on the grid at one stage last year to fighting for podiums come the end of the season if it wasn't easier to catch up development?

Also the likes of Ferrari & McLaren *will* throw millions of pounds at trying to get a few tenths here & there. Whoever spends the most generally has the best car (with the exception of Toyota as they never listened to Mike Gascoyne's advice). In fact they end up throwing more parts in the bin than they actually use. More so when trying to catch up.

At the end of the day testing doesn't reveal too much about outright performance. Come the end of the 1st race we will know who has the fastest car. Thats the only real way to tell.
 
hiroofheroes said:
Perhaps one or two teams have been solely testing their mechanical packages and tyre wear thus far, and may surprise with a more radical aero package come the Barcelona test, but that would be a huge risk if the new package didn't work as expected.
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The way I see it is that if a team brings a different setup/package to the final test (or first race), compared to that which was used during the other tests and that revised package/setup doesnt work, then they are totally ****ed as they simply don't have the time to make changes to correct the problem.

If however, a team decides to run the tests, without hiding anything, I believe they will get the most out of the tests and will learn the most about their car, as they are not holding back.

I think there are arguments for and against "hiding" the performance of your car and it would be very interesting to get an insider's view. Perhaps CSl could enlighten us on the testing strategies used by RedBull (though I'm not sure if he is allowed to tell us).
 
sunama said:
The way I see it is that if a team brings a different setup/package to the final test (or first race), compared to that which was used during the other tests and that revised package/setup doesnt work, then they are totally ****ed as they simply don't have the time to make changes to correct the problem.
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I think a lot of the testing is to find out if the wind tunnel is giving the same results in the lab and on the track - so they know the new parts will work. Also testing reliability, software, fuel loads with tyres etc not just aero.
 
sunama said:
The way I see it is that if a team brings a different setup/package to the final test (or first race), compared to that which was used during the other tests and that revised package/setup doesnt work, then they are totally ****ed as they simply don't have the time to make changes to correct the problem.

If however, a team decides to run the tests, without hiding anything, I believe they will get the most out of the tests and will learn the most about their car, as they are not holding back.

I think there are arguments for and against "hiding" the performance of your car and it would be very interesting to get an insider's view. Perhaps CSl could enlighten us on the testing strategies used by RedBull (though I'm not sure if he is allowed to tell us).
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I said earlier in this thread [i think] that you should not expect any team to turn up with the same parts come race day.
 
CS||nuTs said:
I said earlier in this thread [i think] that you should not expect any team to turn up with the same parts come race day.
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yea you did a few pages back, certain teams have already said they arent using the proper aero package yet and they will bring a few suprises on race day.

i dont know why people find it so hard to believe that a team wont show all the cards they hold in testing
 
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