F1 Testing 2012 - Week 3, Barcelona

At the point 8 teams were going to protest and Ferrari changed them on FIA instruction just maybe?

It's not hard to work out. The FIA ban a lot of things without the need for protests and court cases, a simple clarification sent to all teams normally does the trick and the offending teams turn up at the next race with changes.

You asked when, you got a source for when, and still you try to argue it, what's the point really.
 
Lol what? You post details of a protest that never happened and details of how the FIA didn't tell Ferrari to change their wings, and then claim that Ferrari had things banned on video evidence?

The FIA didn't ban anything on video evidence alone. Off the back of video evidence they warned other teams, and then implemented a new rule on slot gap supports (which you seem to have decided not to quote). Its this rule that restricted the flexi wings, not the video evidence.

That is not 'banning something on video evidence'. Its implementing tougher rules due to something that has been seen on a video, i.e. exactly what the FIA have done for numerous things, including the flexi RBR front wing.

Once again the issue here is people turning the factual details of the rules into some other meaning in their head, and then claiming its being broken.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that the video evidence didn't cause the ban, I'm saying the video evidence meant the FIA introduced a new rule, and then this new rule is what constituted the ban. The FIA have never banned something based solely on "what they saw it do". They have always used what they saw to create a rule to prevent it.
In the case of the RBR wing, they saw it flexing, so they increased the weight test rules. They saw it still flexing, so increased the weight test rules again. Flexi wings are not illegal "if the FIA see it flexing", they are illegal if they fail the FIA tests as detailed in the regulations designed to prevent wings flexing. Its this differentiation that seems to be causing the issue and confusion.
 
Last edited:
You just have to argue every point even though you clearly do not know what actually happened. The slot gap as you claim was banning the flexing Ferrari rear wing, even you can grasp it just try a bit harder.

Yet again it was Ferrari that unsurprisingly had also developed a flexing rear wing that would bend backwards slightly to reduce drag at higher speeds. Few races later the upper element moved downward under the air pressure and created a rear wing that was actually stalling since the slot gap closed. Although several other teams tried to copy the system in order to gain top speeds they never really match the stunning Ferrari. Among the copycats were BMW Sauber, Renault and Midland. As soon as it became obvious teams spent large amounts of money, the FIA decided once again to ban the system and introduce a mandatory gap spacer as displayed in the image (on a Toyota). As of Canada, it became clear this was becoming more of an FIA season than any other Formula One season before.
Click to expand...

They were banned on video evidence as the wings passed all the tests, not sure how you can deny it.
 
Last edited:
See my edit.

Banning something by imposing a new rule because of what has been seen on a video is not the same as banning something based solely on what has been seen on a video.
 
Last edited:
There you go, in your edit, they banned it by imposing a rule. Its really difficult to get across what I'm trying to explain, but I'm trying.

Put it this way. If the FIA had banned something based solely on video evidence then the rules would say something like:

"Any part of the rear wing seen to flex at speed on on-board video footage during a race weekend is illegal"

But thats not what it says. The rules stated (words to the effect of) "The rear wing elements must be joined together with a slot gap seperator in order to prevent them flexing"

Do you get what I'm getting at?

Going back to the original discussion around RBR front wings, being "seen" to flex does not constitute a breaking of the rules. To be illegal it has to fail the tests in the rules designed to prevent it flexing. But due to poor communication of the rules by the media and things people have formed this belief that there is a rule that states "wings cannot flex" and seeing one flex is enough to claim that rule is broken. This is incorrect, and this misunderstanding is the basis behind all the "Red Bull are being allowed to cheat!" claims.

Ok? I'm not denying the video evidence caused the ban (of the Ferrari wing), I'm saying the ban is enforced through a rule. The RBR wing is exactly the same.
 
Last edited:
Ok they changed the rules based solely on video evidence.

So they can therefore change the rules as they did already (by increasing the load testing) to prevent front wings flexing.
 
Mr Men said:
Ok they changed the rules based solely on video evidence.

So they can therefore change the rules as they did already (by increasing the load testing) to prevent front wings flexing.
Click to expand...

Yes.

Thats what I was trying to say. The flexi wings were banned by the rule that was imposed off the back of what was seen on a video.

Its this creation of a rule that is the key point to me. The FIA didn't ban it simply because they saw it, they banned it by writing a rule because of what they saw. Do you get my point?
 
Ok, lets look at it from the RBR wing perspective.

Frank is claiming they are illegal because he can "see" them flexing. For this to be the case, the rules would have to specify that anything that is "seen to flex" is illegal.

They don't say this. They instead outline a bunch of tests to test the flexibility of a wing and deem it illegal or legal that way. The RBR wing passes these tests, therefore its legal.

Agreed?
 
The rules already state about how much flexing they can do, the Ferrari rear wing passed the same tests, but from video they said oh wait we can't allow this, what can we do - slot gap.

They could do the same with the front wing, as they also done with the previously mentioned front wings that separated under loading, they passed the tests and were legal under the rules too.
 
They are already up to 100KG at small specific points on either end of the wing. Considering the wings probubly produce ~500KG of downforce spread across the whole wing, I don't know how much further they can go.

Oh, and the regulations do allow a 2cm flex (under the 100KG weight), which is actually quite a lot.

The only way the FIA can properly test, and therefore regulate the wings, would be to put full sized wings in a full sized wind tunnel. And until someone develops one that can be shipped to each track, I think they have to make do with the weight tests :p

Infact, the rules don't say anything at all about "front wings can't flex". They just state the maximum amount of flex under certain loadings.
 
Skeeter said:
Yep. There is so much potential on the grid for an epic season. I really hope it delivers.

Tbh, all people need to do is stop Vettel getting pole.

(lol, I say that like its a simple task :))
Click to expand...

Last year also had the potential for a great season.
Ferrari had one of the best pre-season tests in living memory and they got hammered from race1.

Alonso, was the guy who was going to stop Vettel in 2011...but it just didn't happen, as Hamilton fell apart.

This year, we are looking towards McLaren (given that Ferrari appear to be done...maybe), but after last year, in order to beat Vettel, I feel that Button and Hamilton now require a faster car than the reigning champ, to beat him. In equal cars, I feel Vettel would outscore the 2 McLaren drivers, across an entire season.

I know its not fair, but I am beginning to think that perhaps RBR need to be given some penalties or the rules need to be changed so that they work against them. Perhaps bendable bodywork needs to be banned. If we can at least get Vettel's car banned for 3 races (much like MSc's ban in 1994), it will allow his competition to close the gap and make the championship more exciting.

But anyway, lets just wait for the season to start. So far, pre-season testing has given us very little indication on which is consistently the fastest car on the grid. Given this, I am probably being a little premature in claiming that RBR/Vettel will conquer all in 2012.
 
Glaucus said:
So what's everyone's predictions from testing?
RBR 10wins
McLaren 7
Lotus 2
Ferrari/mercedes 1
Click to expand...

Lotus...2 wins?
My prediction will be similar to yours, only Lotus' wins will go to Ferrari. Ferrari will come on very strong towards the end of the year, after Vettel has won the title. ;)

RBR 10wins
McLaren 7
Ferrari/mercedes 3
 
Mr Men said:
I never said they can't flex, they have to flex or they will just be broken off under load.
Click to expand...

No you didn't, that was aimed at Frank (and all the other people who keep claiming Red Bull are braking the rules because they can see the wing flexing). There is no rule that says the wings can't flex, there is just rules that limit by how much.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom