F1 Testing 2012 - Week 3, Barcelona

[Skeeter]

The rule that made EBDs illegal at Silverstone was then removed for the rest of the season. The FIA did not allow illegal cars to race.

But if your just going to continually try and have the last say, and do so by posting something that is wrong, then I suppose I'm wasting my time.

I just hope anyone else who reads it is intelligent enough to realise for themselves.

 

[Reaper 392]

Wrong.

They asked if using it to maintain stability under braking was legal. The FIA said yes, as it broke no rules.

Then when the full details were revealed it actually transpired that they were using a mechanical moving device to maintain an aero benefit primarily, which was then deemed illegal under the rules banning movable aero parts.

The FIA didn't ignore some rules and then decide to impose them, the actual purpose of the device changed as it was developed and details revealed.

Its all to do with what something's 'primary' purpose is. For example, the suspension struts all move, and they are all aerodynamically shaped to offer the least drag and also in the case of some of the rear parts, channel air to improve aerodynamics. The FIA haven't banned anything but round suspension parts because at the end of the day a suspensions primary purpose is to hold the wheels on and the car up.

When Lotus were initially developing the device they convinced the FIA its primary purpose was to stabalise the car under braking by altering the weight transfer. As the device developed however the FIA came to the conclusion that its primary purpose was instead to maintain ride height for an aero advantage, and therefore rightly banned it. Rather similar to the iconic 'fan car' where they managed to convince the FIA its primary purpose was cooling, before the FIA took a closer look and called shenanigans.

So no, the FIA didn't blindly ignore a bunch of rules. And seen as the device never made it onto a track for a competitive weekend anyway, its irrelevant. It was never used in a situation where it would have been subject to the rules.

i wish i could find the place where this was explained, but even if the device was not designed to improve aerodynamic performance it would still have been illegal, and the FIA should have known about it immediately because it was a basic premise of how it worked.

its been so long that i cant remember the exact details, but because the hydraulic systems were mounted on a sprung part of the car, and the hydraulic system was altering the suspension, it was not allowed. never mind about the adjustable aero benefits, the way lotus/renault were showing it to the FIA was illegal, but the FIA ignored this. the other teams showed the FIA that it was more illegal than they realised so the FIA banned it

 

[Mr Men]

The rule that made EBDs illegal at Silverstone was then removed for the rest of the season.

No it really was not, moveable aero was still banned after Silverstone, no idea why you just said that.

But if your just going to continually try and have the last say, and do so by posting something that is wrong, then I suppose I'm wasting my time.

I just hope anyone else who reads it is intelligent enough to realise for themselves.

Ok show me the new rules after Silverstone that removed the rules banning moveable aero, then I will admit I was wrong, I assume you have these rules since you are claiming this to be the case.

 

[Skeeter]

The rule imposed at Siverstone was around gas flow through the engine when off the throttle. It was then removed after that race, and a revised version put in the 2012 regs.

If your going to post incorrect information about rules, the least you can do is get the right rule in the first place.

 

[Mr Men]

I think you best go back and read, the FIA were banning it under the moveable aero rules. 2012 rules are nothing to do with it, so come on show me what rules they removed after Silverstone since I am the one posting wrong information, please show me.

 

[Skeeter]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.p...view_normal_site#Diffuser_ban_and_controversy

I know its wiki, but the references are all there, and its a good all round rightup of what happened.

The EBDs were considered moveable aero, but the FIA could hardly ban engines could they? They also couldn't enforce regulations on where exhaust were without forcing teams to redesign their cars at great delay and cost. So, the ban was imposed through the addition of a rule on throttle position while the driver was off throttle. All the stupid inter team arguing started with the end result being that the rule was removed after Silverstone and agreed it would be in the 2012 regs (if I wasn't on my phone I would go and get the article number).

Considering the engine a moveable aero part was not enough on its own, as the primary purpose of an engine is clearly not aero. Therefore the FIA needed a specific rule that banned off throttle maps. They imposed it for a race, it all got very messy, they removed it after that one race.

At no point did a car race while in breach of a regulation written in the technical regulations. There was a rule there for 1 weekend (about 4 versions of it), and all the teams complied, and then the rule was removed.

 

[Mr Men]

They never removed the moveable aero rules, agreed?

 

[Skeeter]

They never removed the moveable aero rules, end off.

The off throttle EBD ban was never enforced using the moveable aero rule, it was enforced using the rule limiting off accelerator throttle positions.

In the same way that the flexi front wings are not enforced under the moveable aero rule, they are enforced under the flexibility rule of applying 1000N to the ends of the wings.

The off accelerator throttle position rule existed for only 1 race.

Edit: This is the regulation around moveable aero. Its from the 2012 regs but none of it is pink so its the same as 2011

3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 (in addition to
minimal parts solely associated with its actuation) and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any
specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :
* ‐* Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.
* ‐* Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not
having any degree of freedom).
* ‐* Must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.
Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the
car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.
No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of
the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference
plane.
With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.18, any car
system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the
aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.

Now I am sure you will agree that that rule on its own is far to ambiguous to be used to enforce anything. I mean it suggests anything that the driver does that affects the aero of the car is banned. Pressing the throttle and making the car move changes the aero on the car. Turning the wheel to make the front wheels move changes the aero characteristics of the car. Going over a bump so that the suspension compresses changes the aero characteristics.

Its a rule that on its own is no where near detailed enough to enforce any meaningfull bans on anything, really.

So, they brought in the off accelerator mapping rule to take the moveable aero decision down to a level that was specific enough to be properly enforceable. This rule existed for only 1 weekend.

 

[Mr Men]

What rule limiting off throttle positions?

Source for this rule? Never heard of it.

The reason for the ban is the FIA is unhappy that 'hot blowing' is a waste of fuel, and believe that blown diffusers in general are making use of moving parts of the engine to influence aerodynamics, and therefore infringe a regulation against moveable aerodynamic devices. Williams technical director Sam Michael told Autosport that the Technical Working Group would be meeting on Thursday in order to agree on how it will implement the FIA's rules.

 

[Skeeter]

What rule limiting off throttle positions?

Source for this rule? Never heard of it.

Really?!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/13739621

Whiting's new restrictions have set a limit of 10% of throttle when the driver has lifted off the accelerator.

It was all they talked about for the entire Silverstone weekend!

Its in the 2012 regulations now as article 5.5 and 5.6.

 

[Mr Men]

They never had a new rule, they banned it under moveable aero.

From your own link, did you even read it?

Whiting believes this is illegal because it is using the moving parts of the engine to influence aerodynamics and therefore, in his opinion, contravenes a long-standing rule banning moveable aerodynamic devices.

Seriously you are just being awkward now instead of admitting you are making up things.

 

[Skeeter]

See my edit above. The moveable aero rule on its own is barely worth the paper its written on. They needed the specific throttle map rule to enforce it, as a result of this from your quote:

Williams technical director Sam Michael told Autosport that the Technical Working Group would be meeting on Thursday in order to agree on how it will implement the FIA's rules

As we all (well, maybe not you, as you claim to have never heard of it) know they never did agree on how to impliment it. The FIA went ahead anyway limiting them to 10%, then gave Renault concessions (50%), then Mercedes (50% as well I think?), then realised the whole thing was a farce and dropped the rule after Silverstone.

The same rule also limited a teams ability to change their engine mappings between qualifying and the race. I don't actually know if that bit was removed as well after Silverstone (anyone else know?). In 2012 there is no changing of engine mappings at all. Its 1 for wet tyres, 1 for dry (2012 tech regs 5.5.4).

 

[Mr Men]

Can show me FIA documentation of a new rule for Silverstone, as it would be on the FIA site and also on every F1 site at the time.

 

[Skeeter]

The documents themselves never appeared (that I saw), presumably as they were not public documents and instead memos to the the teams from the FIA.

But the contents were widely reported throughout the weekend (as usual Scarbs has a good writeup).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/13739621
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login...m/news/report.php/id/91661&type=news&id=91661
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14035942
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login...m/news/report.php/id/92948&type=news&id=92948
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login...m/news/report.php/id/92953&type=news&id=92953
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login...m/news/report.php/id/92958&type=news&id=92958
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login...m/news/report.php/id/92987&type=news&id=92987
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login...m/news/report.php/id/92998&type=news&id=92998
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login...m/news/report.php/id/93016&type=news&id=93016
http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/6/12186.html
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/07/08/10-rule-full-analysis/

Not to mention is was all Jake, Eddie and DC talked about for the build up to both Quali and the Race.

Don't quite know how you missed it tbh?

 

[JRS]

Can show me FIA documentation of a new rule for Silverstone, as it would be on the FIA site and also on every F1 site at the time.

Charlie Whiting Q&A, posted on the FIA site.

Changing engine maps in Parc Fermé was banned for Valencia onwards. A technical directive was issued (actually, more than one) over the Silverstone weekend to end off-throttle blowing of the diffuser. Teams argued that they needed some off-throttle blowing to maintain reliability. Concessions were made, then taken away. The whole mess was resolved post-Silverstone by reverting to the Valencia rules.

 

[Mr Men]

I was at the race, still no new rule, and they never removed any rules after Silverstone, all your links say the same thing, banned under moveable aero, give in you are wrong and you know it.

 

[Mr Men]

Charlie Whiting Q&A, posted on the FIA site.

Changing engine maps in Parc Fermé was banned for Valencia onwards. A technical directive was issued (actually, more than one) over the Silverstone weekend to end off-throttle blowing of the diffuser. Teams argued that they needed some off-throttle blowing to maintain reliability. Concessions were made, then taken away. The whole mess was resolved post-Silverstone by reverting to the Valencia rules.

Yes under the moveable aero ruling, which is my whole point, sheesh

 

[JRS]

And another one - http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/f1releases/2011/Pages/f1-exhausts.aspx

The measures which were communicated to the teams this morning by the FIA Technical Department stand for the rest of the weekend.

During Saturday morning’s Extraordinary Technical Working Group meeting, the members discussed the viability of returning to the pre-Silverstone set-ups and strategies.

If the teams are in unanimous agreement, the FIA is prepared to adopt this arrangement until the end of the current season.

Emphasis is my own.

 

[Mr Men]

As I said the teams agreed that the FIA should not ban it under the moveable aero rules, even though the FIA said it was illegal.

 

[JRS]

As I said the teams agreed that the FIA should not ban it under the moveable aero rules, even though the FIA said it was illegal.

It was hard to ban it under the moveable aero rules, because it's primary purpose would have to be for aerodynamic gain. Which it wasn't - it was to get exhaust gases out of the engine, the aerodynamic benefits were secondary. Admittedly, they were definitely designed in. But still secondary.

As Charlie said in the first link I posted:

We certainly consider them to be questionable, however, the key is whether or not we consider any particular engine map to have been created for any other reason than the generation of engine torque.

Now, an engine map cannot be a moveable aero device. Of course it can't - it's just a string of 1s and 0s. So banning the EBD wholesale would be the only way to ban off-throttle blowing using the moveable aero rules. And then we're back to what the primary purpose of the exhaust pipes is - removing exhaust gases from the engine. There's no way in hell that the FIA could ban the teams from placing the exhausts there under the rulebook as it was written in 2011.

In summary - EBD legal in 2011, altering engine maps legal until Valencia and banned thereafter, OTEBD banned for Silverstone only. At no point in 2011 was the EBD (or the off-throttle blowing) knocked on the head for being a moveable aerodynamic device. It couldn't be - the FIA couldn't definitively say that the primary purpose of the exhaust was aerodynamics.