FIA Formula E Championship

[Glaucus]

Again go read the EU road maps. It's all planed and a massive reduction in energy consumption in other areas. We have 39years to reduce energy consumption and bring power production unto meet the need for electric cars.

It's like saying we could never supply all the fuel for cars, guess what we have.

Oh and where do you think all the power would come from to produce hydrogen? Then all the waste in transport and storage. Then waste in engine. Electricity is extremly efficient over the entire life cycle, compare to other methods.

 

[FrankJH]

too fugly imo , and if all the battery tech is on the bottom why arent the tops of the chassis much more aerodynamic?

Also I was under the impression that most electric cars have very poor acceleration / top speed , Im sorry but it surely has to be much closer to F1 speeds etc to generate and keep interest high

 

[Alpherah]

too fugly imo , and if all the battery tech is on the bottom why arent the tops of the chassis much more aerodynamic?

Also I was under the impression that most electric cars have very poor acceleration / top speed , Im sorry but it surely has to be much closer to F1 speeds etc to generate and keep interest high

Iirc, as has already been mentioned, electric is better then petrol in every aspect. Its just storing enough thats the problem.

 

[FrankJH]

Iirc, as has already been mentioned, electric is better then petrol in every aspect. Its just storing enough thats the problem.

well I seem to recall Hammond mentioning on tg the top speed limitations, and poor acceleration (but in a kind of way to suggest it was expected)

 

[Alpherah]

On a road car maybe, where they have to balance consumption vs longevity.
Electric has the potential to far surpass petrol though.

 

[Glaucus]

well I seem to recall Hammond mentioning on tg the top speed limitations, and poor acceleration (but in a kind of way to suggest it was expected)

Storage + road car.
Electric does not really have a power curve. You pretty much get full power through the entire rpm range. Thus electric is far superior acceleration as said the limiting capacity is storage.
But it's not going in at f1 levels, the top level ATM seems to be formula 3 levels, with no hold back on technology development.

 

[Guerrilla]

Think this could be interesting, would certainly give something a bit different to support races.

Not keen on that design though, and there would be a severe lack of sound I imagine

 

[FreeStream]

Until electric cars can do as many miles as a current combustion based car can then it simply will not take off.

Having to recharge every 50-100 miles is not useful.

Storage density has to essentially multiply by a factor of 10 + other efficiency improvements.

I don't know what hydrogen tech is at at the moment with regards to power density, but I prefer that tech to batteries because you can fill them up like a normal car.

Renewable source + hydrogen creation = future IMO.

 

[Glaucus]

Or again, you swap batteries and hey presto you have your range with current tech and the infrastructure for electric is being installed.

 

[Skeeter]

I get what your saying about the whole infrastructure. The current ease of use of Petrol is because there are petrol stations all over the place.

If it was the same for battery swap points, then the range of 200 miles wouldn't be an issue.

But then I still think having to replace entire banks of batteries is a step backwards from the idiot proof filling with petrol. The costs will also be high.

And then there is still the issue of where all this new electricity that people demand is going to come from.

For something to be adopted, it needs to be similar to the current proccess, and provide advantages. That is why I think hydrogen is the way forward. What the EU have a roadmap for is irrelevant.

 

[Glaucus]

How can you say it's irrelevent, that is where the money and development is being spent and as such the infasteuctire will gradually grow.

Hydrogen offers no benefits it's inefficient in all areas, has to be carted around like oil and is incredibly hard to store. Electric in comparison is pretty efficient in all areas, transported down a wire and you can top up all over the place including at home. again battery swap is not the same quantity as petrol refills, as you only need to do it on extended runs, just 10 swaps a year for the average user.

Take the average uk commute is just 8.5miles. Even if it wa 90mile commute. As long as you did an 8th shift your car would be fully charged for return home.

 

[Skeeter]

Electricity requires inventing and distributing an entirely new infrastructure. Hydrogen can possibly be incorporated into the current Oil based infrastructure.

I'm not saying Electricity doesn't have its place. It makes perfect sense in short city based commutes, but I think the 'all eggs in one basket' approach is a bad move.

I mean what are they going to do for long haul lorrys? Or coaches? or Taxis that are on the go all day so cant be left to charge for hours?

Electricity is an answer to only part of the problem. Not all of it.

 

[Glaucus]

We have the infrastructure and it's being upgraded at the moment in a 16billion project due to finish 2015iirc, and 9billion for connecting and coping with wind energy by 2020, as well as other upgrades. We already have an electrical infrastructure. We have basically zero hydrogen structure.

And no hydrogen can not be used in current oil infrastructure. It would just leak out everywhere. As well as oil storage not being stored under pressure or any of the Other hydrogen problems.

And you would need even more electrical power to create the hydrogen rather than electrical cars.

 

[FreeStream]

Or again, you swap batteries and hey presto you have your range with current tech and the infrastructure for electric is being installed.

From what I've seen it's a clip on 'petrol pump' kind of thing to refuel a hydrogen car.

Battery pack changing is a much bigger job. It's not like it's going to be slide one back out, slide another one back in by hand job is it? Who is going to want to do that?

I don't buy it.

If battery packs are plug and play then the changing process will have to be completely automatic so all the necessary points are lined up, etc.

I just think a plug in fuel hose is far far far simpler than a battery changing system.

Granted hydrogen storage is a issue.

 

[Glaucus]

From what I've seen it's a clip on 'petrol pump' kind of thing to refuel a hydrogen car.
.

And what's that got to do with transport and storage?
Hydrogen is a tiny atom, compared to a long carbon chain. It has an incredible ability to escape out of storage,it also has to bestowed under pressure to get anything like a usable energy density. It can not and never will be able to use petrol storage or infrastructure.

And yes that's exactly what car manufactures and third party's are planning, slide battery pack out, slide fresh one in, all automated. Hardly hard or time consuming. In fact you ca slot a new battery in faster than you canto fill up a petrol tank. Why not watch the two videos in this thread.

With battery swap you don't need a bttery to do 500miles. Cost is subjective as price of oil keeps going up and price of electric cars will nose dive, as production ramps. There's even new batteries that should go into production in the next few years that are far cheaper to make as. They use a fraction of the lithium.

 

[Skillmister]

Acid, i assume when you say 'swapping the battery' that would mean changing your empty battery for a full one at the equivalent of a petrol station? Rather than taking the spare batteries with you.

e: ok i watched the video and understand it now

 

[Glaucus]

Acid, i assume when you say 'swapping the battery' that would mean changing your empty battery for a full one at the equivalent of a petrol station? Rather than taking the spare batteries with you.

Yep, see the videos.


The average driver needs just 10 battery swaps a year. So its not a stagaring amount of extra batteries in circulation. The rest is done on recharging.

For example average uk commute is 8.5miles well within range and next to no time to recharge at work.
Even if you worked 80miles away, 7-8hour shift will see you fully recharged for return home. Even 30minutes fast charge should get you home and if you worked half a day, fast charge +normal top up, will give you a full charge for return journey.

And renaults little graphic

 

[Skillmister]

See thats the kind of thing that i and im sure many others hadnt even heard about with all the electric car hype. Surely thats a key point that should be advertised as the '8 hour charging' crap is what everyone seems worried about.

 

[Glaucus]

See thats the kind of thing that i and im sure many others hadnt even heard about with all the electric car hype. Surely thats a key point that should be advertised as the '8 hour charging' crap is what everyone seems worried about.

It's be uase there isn't any around other than 1 or isn't it two in Japan. Electric cars are certainly not for everyone yet,but they will be.

Next gen cars to be released in a year or two have even faster fast charge times. 20mins for something like 80%.

It's all coming. And by the time general public starts to take it seriously the infrastructure should be there.

 

[FreeStream]

And what's that got to do with transport and storage?
Hydrogen is a tiny atom, compared to a long carbon chain. It has an incredible ability to escape out of storage,it also has to bestowed under pressure to get anything like a usable energy density. It can not and never will be able to use petrol storage or infrastructure.

And yes that's exactly what car manufactures and third party's are planning, slide battery pack out, slide fresh one in, all automated. Hardly hard or time consuming. In fact you ca slot a new battery in faster than you canto fill up a petrol tank. Why not watch the two videos in this thread.

With battery swap you don't need a bttery to do 500miles. Cost is subjective as price of oil keeps going up and price of electric cars will nose dive, as production ramps. There's even new batteries that should go into production in the next few years that are far cheaper to make as. They use a fraction of the lithium.

Im aware of the implications of storing hydrogen

Few issues I spot with that video.

1. Where do we store enough batteries so that the major stations can do 100 cars an hour, 24/7?
2. Do you only change when your empty, what about if your at 33% charge but you can't reach the next station up, do you get charged for 67% of electricity?
3. I assume there a standard for these swappable batteries?

If batteries take hours to charge and there is a quick turnover rate because of the low range, that means hundreds of batteries need to be stored and charged.

Range is important, nobody will want to stop every 50 miles, even every 100 miles would be mildly annoying...

Some quick engineering calcs suggest storage of 100s of batteries at a 'petrol' station.

How viable is that?

*shrug*