FIA Formula E Championship

[Skeeter]

How does it not make sense in single seater? The potential is huge, it's at the foreground of technology. If it could be combined with an efficient fuel cell, you would have cars with much greeter acceleration and much better weight distribution, than current single seaters.
I really don't get why you are so against a single seater electric series.

I think I've explained it well above. The battery technology is different, and nobody is going to buy an electric car for the road to blast at full power for 20 minutes before having to swap out the batteries.

Do you honestly think building a single seater series where 70% of the weight of the car is batteries just for 20 minute sprints followed by 8 hour charges is the best place to develop consumer commuter batter vehicle technology?

As I have said, I am against it because I believe there are much batter, far more 'real world relevant' motorsports to develop this technology, including within F1 itself. The strengths of electricity in motorsport are in acceleration and in low speed zero emission running, especially when using KERS harvested energy and small efficient batteries. Hybrid GT racing and 'electric F1 pitlanes' are good places for this. A full electric single seater series is not.

 

[Glaucus]

The battery technology isn't different. So you've just made that up to try and bolster your point.
They are Lithium-ion battery's no different to EV road cars.
And does f now have many road car related tech. Do you see any f1 based engines in road cars?
So surly due to lack. Of real world use F1 might as well be scrapped.

 

[clv101]

..and, for fear of dragging this thread back on topic, doesn't make sense for single seater Formula style motorsport.

Sure it does! There are dozens of ICE series. It totally makes sense to have an electric series, it drives interest, drives R&D, all the well recognised benefits of motorsport apply to electric car development and marketing as they do ICE cars. Your opposition to electric cars in motorsport seems ideological.

 

[Skeeter]

You have kind of proved my point there... F1 has very little real world relevance of F1 tech, so it would make sense that an F1 style electric formula would also have very little relevance to real world consumer tech.

There is no road car technology directly developed within this new electric F3 style formula, so you wont get any car makers jumping on board. So its therefore a very expensive technical excersize with no immediate market for the technology, so you wont get business's investing either.

I can almost guarantee that this wont happen. However, if it does, i will gladly let you tell me you told me so, and admit defeat.

Meanwhile, Porsche are developing their second KERS Hybrid car for GT endurance racing, and there looks to be a number of Hybrid prototypes and GT cars being developed for Le Mans entrants over the next few years.

In the same way you use the EU roadmaps as evidence for electric cars on our roads, I'm using existing technology being developed elsewhere as evidence as to why single seater electronic racing is not going to take off. The big players have already put their eggs in baskets elsewhere.

 

[Glaucus]

First, why is there no road car technology in it? How do you possibly come to that conclusion, seeing as it states unregulated development.

How does it stop the aims of creating interest, development and advertising of electric cars.
Seeing as one of the biggest things will be energy density and weight. Something common to both sectors.

In the same way you use the EU roadmaps as evidence for electric cars on our roads, I'm using existing technology being developed elsewhere as evidence as to why single seater electronic racing is not going to take off. The big players have already put their eggs in baskets elsewhere.

Really that's pretty stupid, the two aren't the same or comparable.
They are making hybrids due to the regulations and the fact hybrids extend milage and so less fuel stops, something that is very important in such series. The rules do not allow for eggs in other areas, so again silly statement is silly. In fact just like most of your points that you made, by not reading posts or just plane lying.

 

[Skeeter]

I will take debate, but I object to being told I have lied. Where have I lied?

At the end of the day though, only time will tell. If there is a fully electric single seater series supporting F1 in 2013 then I will have been proved wrong, and I will watch with interest.

 

[Glaucus]

The battery thing for a start.

It wont be 2013. A prototype isn't running till 2012, then they have to find 10 teams, set up contracts and everything else and give the teams a year to develop.

 

[Skeeter]

What battery thing? I stated an assumption based on my own experience, if I assumed wrong, so be it, but that can hardly considered lying?

And your opening post states 2013 as a target for the first year. Unless your going to call yourself a liar?

 

[Pants]

If this series really is completely open, I think it could actually be pretty epic. Anything goes. 6 wheel race cars again anyone?

 

[Glaucus]

You said it didn't use same battery tech, but let's leave it and move on, I apologies for saying it..

It says Could happen as early as 2013 and the article is old. But used it as the prototype Is going ahead and I assume most people won't know about the purposed series.

 

[Glaucus]

If this series really is completely open, I think it could actually be pretty epic. Anything goes. 6 wheel race cars again anyone?

By the sounds of it there will be regulations, just not for power train and recovery.But nothings set in stone, so if it goes ahead it could all change.

 

[Skeeter]

Unregulated Motorsport doesn't work as it then just becomes all about the money.

However, regulating things like chassis dimensions and equivelent power output could force focus on making smaller, more powerfull, lighter and efficient battery technologies, which is after all, where this formula needs its focus to be if it ever becomes a reality.

 

[FreeStream]

I'm quite bored, as you're about to find out

26,000,000 cars on the road (source)
10 swaps per year average
= 260,000,000 / 365 swaps per day = 712,329

(note, that's based on 2006 figures and cars only, so that's probably an underestimate)

Now apparantly there were 8,787 petrol stations in 2010 (source)

So, 712,329 swaps per day / 8,787 = 81 battery swaps per day, on average.

Now of course that's over 24 hours so potentially less due to charging depleted ones, but conversely you could argue that some petrol stations would require far fewer whilst others would need to store >100 batteries to fulfill demand.

So storage is an issue.

Thanks for doing that.

Got side-tracked by driving 102 miles *cough*.

But yes, the local Tescos from 8am to 8pm has 12 pumps on the go at all times. 12 batteries every 5 minutes (people still go into the shop for stuff lets say) means you need 144 charged batteries an hour. Batteries won't charge in an hour and also charging 144 batteries will need one mahooosive power source if each battery is 30+ kWh.

I worked out earlier (I was bored and interested in an engineering pov) that each battery for 100 miles range using Space quality Li-Poly and 3 miles per kW (Leaf @ 55mph) requires batteries sized 1000x1000x110mm and holds 33kWh...

Then how frequently will the changing system break (how often do you see broken filling pumps with a relatively simple system!)

I think it's clear to see why hydrocarbon transport hasn't been replaced yet!!

But I think we are moving away from the actual point of this thread, perhaps a new thread discussing future transport fuel should be started?

 

[Glaucus]

The threads so far off topic anyway.

Why would you need 144 batteries an hour. You wouldn't swap batteries that often.

 

[FreeStream]

The threads so far off topic anyway.

Why would you need 144 batteries an hour. You wouldn't swap batteries that often.

Well this is a tricky question.

You could argue that people will charge at work/home so that changing the batteries at a energy station doesn't have to happen so often.

However given range is much lower than that of current cars you have to change more often.

For example in the last week i've driven 400 miles in four 100 mile jumps.

Thats four 'fill-ups' vs one petrol fill-up assuming 100 miles range at 70-80 MPH cruise.

Granted anyone doing <50 miles to work and back can charge at work/home but people who do long distance trips is the interesting statistic if someone can find it.

 

[Glaucus]

Average is 10 swaps per year, so some will use more some will use less. According to a study. So the 81 batteries per station is the correct number. The average takes into account heavy drivers. Add to the fact that it charges up in 8hours. Means you could theoretically slice that in 3 but demand won't be equal.
why 50. You could do a 70+ mile commute and still be fully recharge by the time you want to return home.
You have to remember you aren't a typical user.

The average commute is just 8.5miles in the uk.

Some of the soon to be release cars have a 125 mile book value, well have to wait to see what real world usage is, but someone like you wouldn't be an early adopter anyway, so the chances are high that distance will be increased anyway.

It would also be nice in city's, think how clean the air would be, with out all the carbon particulates and other compounds. Sod co2, look at real pollutants and energy security and economy if we get on board early. Shame uk is already behind and getting further behind every year.

 

[Kerming]

i just vomited on the floor...........why do the rich gits have to rurin everything.

 

[Skeeter]

i just vomited on the floor...........why do the rich gits have to rurin everything.

Come again?

 

[arknor]

energy bills are already expected to rise by £300 a year ... i dont see how we can ever affored as a nation to have millions of electric cars on the road unless we buld a bunch of nuclear power stations, all this windfarm nonse needs to stop

 

[Kerming]

Come again?

i can't realy talk due to the mass of vomit out of my mouth after reading the first post..........