FIA Formula E Championship

[Glaucus]

Why do you need to do 100 cars a day.
Also where do you think you store them. In a building/underground. It's really not an issue.

Again An average driver needs just 10 swaps in an-entire year.

As to what happens with charge left in a battery, well my guess will be you just lose it. The cost is mainly going to be a sanding rental charge for the batteries rather than cost of electricity.

No standard ATM, but there will be.

Stations are going to be close together anyway and you only need it on long runs, so that gets over the change when your at 66% charge.

Why even throw 50miles in there? Even wost case is 73miles in a Nissan leaf and many people are getting the quoted 100miles and that's what I would consider 1st gen cars.

How viable is it to pump millions of barrels of oil out of the ground every day,refine those millions of barrels and transport those millions of barrels to every corner of the earth.
People see these issues and think they are huge, but forget what massive infrastructure, cost and engineering is in place for oil. It's nothing money and time to build new infrastructure.

Also there's nothing stopping several different battery technologies running side by side, as long as they are all packed into the same Standard container.

 

[clv101]

No one knows whether it'll be electric cars, hydrogen electric cars, biofuel cars or simply fewer cars in the future.

This thread is about an electric race series, which I think is an exciting prospect. There's still lots of primary research to be done in the field of electric vehicles and racing is good way to get it done.

 

[Skeeter]

I still dont see how electricity works for long haul or on the road 24/7 vehicles. Or anyone who wants to do long distances in one go?

 

[Glaucus]

I still dont see how electricity works for long haul or on the road 24/7 vehicles. Or anyone who wants to do long distances in one go?

Why put so much emphasis on one go, is it really so much hassle popping into a garage for two minutes.

All are covered by swapping batteries. But they will be the last to switch to electric and by 2040-2050 who knows what range and things will be like by then.
Basically bathe roadmaps are for 2050, so that gives 39years of infrastructure and development. And by then iirc it's something like only 20% of vehicles to still be petrol and they'll be legacy.

It'll be a gradual change over.

I predict
Green people
2nd family car/people who rarely if ever do long distances
People who do long distances say once a week.
Heavy users
Driving, 24/7 long distance driving.

Even TNT have purchased an electric fleet for deliveries within London and are looking to do similar for other urban areas. Total distance traveled for them is very small.

 

[clv101]

I still dont see how electricity works for long haul or on the road 24/7 vehicles. Or anyone who wants to do long distances in one go?

Why would it need to? The vast majority of vehicle use is well under 100 miles a day. Personally, I only drive over 100 miles in a day around 20 times a year! Even with 1st gen electric vehicles we have today, they are good for a significant proportion of vehicle use.

One thing that mass adoption of electric vehicles would probably mean is a move away from the old model of private ownership of one 'jack of all trades' vehicle towards a more rental/service model. Today, even though 90% of the days of the year I drive significantly less than 100 miles, I still need a car capable of 300 mile range, just for the remaining 10%. This is inefficient. Hell, some days I don't drive at all meaning ANY vehicle ownership is extremely inefficient!

It would be better to have access to a range of vehicles, with different characteristics. Most of the time I'd use the small, light, efficient electric car for short trips, once a month I'd use the large, long range car for big trips. I don't want to 'own' either, what I what is a 'vehicle service'.

 

[SKILL]

Why do you need to do 100 cars a day.
Also where do you think you store them. In a building/underground. It's really not an issue.

Again An average driver needs just 10 swaps in an-entire year.

I'm quite bored, as you're about to find out

26,000,000 cars on the road (source)
10 swaps per year average
= 260,000,000 / 365 swaps per day = 712,329

(note, that's based on 2006 figures and cars only, so that's probably an underestimate)

Now apparantly there were 8,787 petrol stations in 2010 (source)

So, 712,329 swaps per day / 8,787 = 81 battery swaps per day, on average.

Now of course that's over 24 hours so potentially less due to charging depleted ones, but conversely you could argue that some petrol stations would require far fewer whilst others would need to store >100 batteries to fulfill demand.

So storage is an issue.

 

[Skeeter]

I think your both convieniently forgetting about everry bus, coach, lorry, delivery van and taxi when stating 'most vehicles do less than 100 miles a day'.

I also imagine that on current battery technology lorrys will be doing single digit distances on battery packs. It needs an aweful lot of development to get anywhere near the hundreds of miles per fill up of current lorrys.

I totally get your argument about small commuter vehicles for urban driving. But there is simply no way that electricity will completely replace all petrol vehicles in 50 years. The technology simply doesnt support all kinds of use.

 

[Glaucus]

snip

why is it an in issue, I didn't realise we had storage space issues. Or couldnt build buildings considerably larger than petrol stations. Or dig out massive underfloor holding tanks

Also remember it doesn't take 24 hours to recharge, someone dropping a battery of on the way to work, would be ready mid afternoon.
But really even 500 batteries isn't a big building.

 

[Glaucus]

I think your both convieniently forgetting about everry bus, coach, lorry, delivery van and taxi when stating 'most vehicles do less than 100 miles a day'.

I also imagine that on current battery technology lorrys will be doing single digit distances on battery packs. It needs an aweful lot of development to get anywhere near the hundreds of miles per fill up of current lorrys.

I totally get your argument about small commuter vehicles for urban driving. But there is simply no way that electricity will completely replace all petrol vehicles in 50 years. The technology simply doesnt support all kinds of use.

How am I conveniently forgetting it, did you not read the bit about TNt and a fleet of electric vehicles. Now they certainly aren't single digits.
Do you also neglect that it isn't a total swap over night. Why are you so resistive and like many people in this thread making non points, although I think a lot is down to not knowing about tech, grants, EU road maps and the rest.

Again did you not read my post, who said anything about replacing all vehicles in 50 years. Irc it's 80% in 39 years.

 

[Skeeter]

I would be very surprised if there arent well over 50m cars on uk roads by 2050. So thats 200 swaps per day. Can an electrician do the maths on how much electricity that would use up filling the batteries, as a percentage of daily UK use?

Would it not just turn the problem of oil shortage into a problem of electricity shortage?

 

[Skeeter]

TNT's fleet of electric vehicles are small vans. Hardly a replacement for 44 tonne trucks.

 

[clv101]

I totally get your argument about small commuter vehicles for urban driving. But there is simply no way that electricity will completely replace all petrol vehicles in 50 years. The technology simply doesnt support all kinds of use.

It's a brave man who says ANYTHING about future technology development over 50 year time horizons, let alone with confidence "there is simply no way".

No one has the foggiest idea what the technology is going to be like 50 years from now.

It should also be no surprise at all that 1st gen electric vehicles look pretty rubbish when compared to ICE vehicles with a century and countless billions of R&D behind them. That truly is comparing apples with oranges.

TNT's fleet of electric vehicles are small vans. Hardly a replacement for 44 tonne trucks.

Finally, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Sure, its easy to identify applications that electric cars are hopeless at. And sure they aren't a drop in replacement for petrol/diesel. This does not mean they are without their uses though.

 

[Glaucus]

I would be very surprised if there arent well over 50m cars on uk roads by 2050. So thats 200 swaps per day. Can an electrician do the maths on how much electricity that would use up filling the batteries, as a percentage of daily UK use?

Would it not just turn the problem of oil shortage into a problem of electricity shortage?

And how much power to get oil.

There has been plenty of trials for electric buss already.

Again why do you want or need all swap overs over night, this week. There's no need and it's a very silly point.

10ton HGVs again already let alone in 40years +
http://www.vrl-financial-news.com/a.../ll-march/ryder-signs-uk’s-first-electri.aspx

Even if they never came electric what's the issues, with that? How does that suddenly stop 90% of vehicles being electric.

 

[Skeeter]

Finally, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Sure, its easy to identify applications that electric cars are hopeless at. And sure they aren't a drop in replacement for petrol/diesel. This does not mean they are without their uses though.

I have (repeatedly) said I totally understand the application of small electric cars to urban commuting.

It just doesn't make sense as a total replacement of all (or even 80%) of vehicles, and, for fear of dragging this thread back on topic, doesn't make sense for single seater Formula style motorsport.

 

[Glaucus]

Why doesn't it make sense. A series with the potential of being the fastest in the world and at the cutting edge. That is well worthy of a series.

And please tell how replacing ICE cars doesn't make sense.

 

[Skeeter]

Because developing high drain battery technology for 20 minutes or 50km at full speed has what practical use for electric commuter cars, exactly?

 

[Glaucus]

Because developing high drain battery technology for 20 minutes or 50km at full speed has what practical use for electric commuter cars, exactly?

Who said it did? However it would increase investment in battery technology, which would help many many areas, not just cars, as well as energy recovery.
How is it not a worthy series?
Its still worthy as long as the racing is good, it's worthy from a technological standpoint and it also does what the EU want. To advertise electric vehicles.

And there's huge amounts being invested and developed.
Another recent claim
http://www.scientificamerican.com/a...e-allows-lithium-ion-batteries-quicker-charge

There's high hope for nano technology and Graohene. But as yet nothing solid or in production, which is why I haven't said anything on it.

 

[Skeeter]

Because (and I'm assuming this based soley on the fact there are different types of AA batteries dependant on the application) high power short term battery technology is very different to long term sustained lower drain technology.

I think Hybrid technology in things like Le Mans and GT racing, where efficency and reliability over long periods is key, are the right areas for this. The 911 Hybrid used a KERS to turn a 450bhp RWD car into a 600BHP 4WD car at the touch of a button, or alternatively provide sustained power boost for acceleration that resulted in it doing 2 laps extra on a tank of fuel than its full petrol powered rivals. And thats with a simple bolt in bit of kit, all be it using a Kinetic KERS not battery. I am a massive fan of the Porsche KERS hybrid projects.

But thats real world practical hybrid technology that uses adaptations of current tech rather than completely inventing a whole new genre. I can fully see how a KERS system with some batteries in a sports car can allow electric low speed running, and hybrid high speed running or acceleration that plays to the 0rpm torque characteristics of electric motors.

As I have said before, hybrid and electric racing in other areas like saloon/touring cars, GT and endurance racing carries much more practical and development sense than inventing a battery powered sprint Formula series just to get electric technology to the forefront.

I'm not saying don't put electricity or hybrids in Motorsport, im saying put it somewhere where it makes sense.

EDIT: I fully see the point of the F1 'electricity in the pitlane' plans for 2014 too. Why should a car running at a regulated 60mph in the pitlane not do so using electricity it has generated whilst out on the track racing? Its a non competitive area of the race, but has very practical real world use. I would love to go for a hoon in my car, and then trundle back through town at 30mph running on KERS harvested electricity using zero petrol.

 

[Glaucus]

How does it not make sense in single seater? The potential is huge, it's at the foreground of technology. If it could be combined with an efficient fuel cell, you would have cars with much greeter acceleration and much better weight distribution, than current single seaters.
I really don't get why you are so against a single seater electric series.

Oh and it's using same batteries as road cars.

But by the sounds of it, it'll be upto teams to decide what they use.
Hopefully after track test well get to see Regulations and see just how up for it FIA and everyone else is.

 

[ZG002]

I can see it helping develop a smaller lighter battery, A smaller lighter more efficient, powerful motor.

All of which will help imo