Poll: Fight: steven seagal v JCVD - Who do you think would win?

Who would win?

  • Steven Seagal

    Votes: 196 44.5%

  • JCVD

    Votes: 244 55.5%
  • Total voters
    440
semi-pro waster said:
It's a competition - the clue is in the name, it's not the ultimate assessment of martial arts. Let's be clear here there is no such thing as the ultimate martial art and being good at MMA competitions means that - you're good at MMA competitions, no more and no less. There will almost certainly be some crossover and someone who is good at MMA will also be able to defend themselves more effectively than someone who has never trained or trains specifically without contact/sparring of some description but it isn't a complete measure of the utility of a martial art since there are still limitations imposed upon it.
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+1.
 
semi-pro waster said:
It's a competition - the clue is in the name, it's not the ultimate assessment of martial arts.
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No but its the closest thing we've got. Reality is that if your martial art can't stand up to a competition with relatively few restrictions then its not going to do any better in the real world.

People can BS all they want with 'oooh but if a grappler tried that with me I'd kick him in the nuts or gouge his eyes' now I don't know of any art form that actually trains with goggles on and attempts to poke each other in the eye* but in reality a capable fighter is able to fight dirty just as well as anyone else if it came down it the difference is that they can do everything else well too and you'd need to be able to get close to them in the first place. Rather tricky if they're actively resisting you and you've never really gone up against someone who is not compliant to an extent.

(perhpas some krav maga class has tried it lol)
 
dowie said:
No but its the closest thing we've got. Reality is that if your martial art can't stand up to a competition with relatively few restrictions then its not going to do any better in the real world.
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Ignoring the obvious ones (groin strikes, eye gouging) there are many UFC rules that would disadvantage 'aikido' (or any Koryū)

Grabbing the clavicle
Small joint manipulation
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
Engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent

But, the main one:

Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent
 
Castiel said:
+1.
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you gave a +1 to a quote containing this:

There will almost certainly be some crossover and someone who is good at MMA will also be able to defend themselves more effectively than someone who has never trained or trains specifically without contact/sparring of some description
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and yet posted this earlier:

Castiel said:
In many ways Tai Chi and Aikido are the more dangerous of the arts.
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meghatronic said:
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent
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That in itself isn't going to stop someone from putting Aikido into practice as part of their skill set - most people chose BJJ others Judo or Wrestling.

Yes I know you'd avoid a confrontation and a proper practitioner wouldn't do MMA etc... but in reality there isn't anything stopping anyone from learning Aikido and putting it into practice in MMA competition - unfortunately there is very little that would be useful.
 
dowie said:
That in itself isn't going to stop someone from putting Aikido into practice as part of their skill set - most people chose BJJ others Judo or Wrestling.

Yes I know you'd avoid a confrontation and a proper practitioner wouldn't do MMA etc... but in reality there isn't anything stopping anyone from learning Aikido and putting it into practice in MMA competition - unfortunately there is very little that would be useful.
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I meant, some Aikido 'moves', i.e., evasion, would be regarded as timidity. I know for a 100% fact they are in Judo as I've been penalised for not 'engaging'.
 
Anyway I'm wasting too much time on this - to sum up my POV I don't have any bias against traditional martial arts I just happen to be skeptical of stuff which has little evidence of its effectiveness. Aliveness IMO is important in martial arts - some people don't seem to get it. IMO Aikido isn't very effective - save for a few wrist locks etc.. as I've posted earlier.

I'll leave you with Bas Rutten's thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk
 
dowie said:
Anyway I'm wasting too much time on this - to sum up my POV I don't have any bias against traditional martial arts I just happen to be skeptical of stuff which has little evidence of its effectiveness. Aliveness IMO is important in martial arts - some people don't seem to get it. IMO Aikido isn't very effective - save for a few wrist locks etc.. as I've posted earlier.

I'll leave you with Bas Rutten's thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk
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Besides a few youtube videos, just how much experience do you have to make such a judgement?

A blackbelt in surfing youtube really doesn't cut it.
 
dowie said:
Anyway I'm wasting too much time on this - to sum up my POV I don't have any bias against traditional martial arts I just happen to be skeptical of stuff which has little evidence of its effectiveness. Aliveness IMO is important in martial arts - some people don't seem to get it. IMO Aikido isn't very effective - save for a few wrist locks etc.. as I've posted earlier.
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Well, ultimately it's your loss. Being narrow-minded and being unable to expand on your grievances doesn't exactly bode well for discussion. You have also hesitated discussing your martial art experience, if any. So we have to assume you're an armchair samurai.

I find it very odd you single out Aikido as lacking 'aliveness' when, if a good school, it is one of the most 'alive'.

But hey, let me know roughly where you live and I'll try and find you a reputable school to visit. Hopefully they can open your eyes and show you that Aikido isn't 'fake'. There are a LOT of Aikido dojos out there that don't cut it. I could offer an educate opinion on the club and sensei's lineage. I can't say fairer than that :)
 
meghatronic said:
Well, ultimately it's your loss. Being narrow-minded and being unable to expand on your grievances doesn't exactly bode well for discussion. You have also hesitated discussing your martial art experience, if any. So we have to assume you're an armchair samurai.

I find it very odd you single out Aikido as lacking 'aliveness' when, if a good school, it is one of the most 'alive'.

But hey, let me know roughly where you live and I'll try and find you a reputable school to visit. Hopefully they can open your eyes and show you that Aikido isn't 'fake'. There are a LOT of Aikido dojos out there that don't cut it. I could offer an educate opinion on the club and sensei's lineage. I can't say fairer than that :)
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Why are these Aikido fighters not mopping up and earning millions in MMA?
 
semi-pro waster said:
Where's the Bruce Lee option? Well, if he weren't dead of course.

If you were to take it back 15-20 years when they were nearer their peak my money would have been on Seagal, in fact it probably still would be as Aikido isn't a martial art that relies on the physical strength or flexibility of the practioner much. That's not to say he'd win every time but but I'd be fairly confident he'd win more than he'd lose at this particular match up.
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Elequently summed up my thoughts exactly. Aikido focuses mainly on using your attackers speed, momentum and body weight to fling them around like a wet rag, thus buggering them right up. All JCVD's high kicking, spinning and aerial acrobatics would earn him would be a trip through the nearest wall. :D
 
meghatronic said:
There is no such thing as an aikido "fighter". As I've said throughout, rules, philosophy and perhaps they don't want to.
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I'm sure they would much rather hang around in high school gym dojo's teaching spergy nerds, throwing each other at 1/10th pace and applying wrist locks on each other in a way that would never work in a genuine combat situation than becoming A list celebrity's and earning millions for what would be 5 minutes work should the martial art work as described.
 
AndyOcUK said:
Elequently summed up my thoughts exactly. Aikido focuses mainly on using your attackers speed, momentum and body weight to fling them around like a wet rag, thus buggering them right up. All JCVD's high kicking, spinning and aerial acrobatics would earn him would be a trip through the nearest wall. :D
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The only problem with that is Aikido only works when your opponent lets you throw them around or in spergy nerds fantasy's where you don't have to be genuinely tough to be able to fight with any kind of reasonable chance of winning.
 
hurfdurf said:
I'm sure they would much rather hang around in high school gym dojo's teaching spergy nerds, throwing each other at 1/10th pace and applying wrist locks on each other in a way that would never work in a genuine combat situation than becoming A list celebrity's and earning millions for what would be 5 minutes work should the martial art work as described.
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From the top instructors I've met, they would certainly not want to be "A list celebrity's and earning millions". In fact, I've yet to meet an instructor that makes a profit from aikido teaching. My last club had 6 figures in the bank and the instructor doesn't even claim expenses.

The wristlocks don't work in a genuine combat situation? Oh noes! Better call the police to restructure their control and restraint courses. I don't just mean the UK Police, I meant pretty much every law enforcement agency in the world that uses exactly the same locks.

Also, your 1/10th pace is fallacious. ALL martial arts and sports train at incremental speeds, building up. Cf. the Mustard video previously.
 
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