Poll: Fight: steven seagal v JCVD - Who do you think would win?

Who would win?

  • Steven Seagal

    Votes: 196 44.5%

  • JCVD

    Votes: 244 55.5%
  • Total voters
    440
Castiel said:
In a real fight, the ability to put your opponent down permanently in the shortest period of time is the most effective. How you do that is irrelevant.

Anticipation is your best weapon.
Click to expand...

From what I've seen Aikido doesn't work so well in reality to this end against a determined opponent - it works for the police etc. as they can use the time it buys to handcuff the person, or subdue them with numbers and so on, in a real street fight its more likely to end up with fighting on the floor, etc. which isn't really a position you want to be in. Take the first attack in that video back up - in a real fight I'd be taking your legs out before you could apply the wrist lock.
 
Last edited:
meghatronic said:
Hands up who has assisted on police and prison service control and restraint courses?

Oh...? Me. I see.


Personally? Quite a few times, only once for >5 seconds though. I've also had bones broken (every toe, cracked ribs, dislocated shoulders and thumbs) and broken bones. I've also had a few black eyes and bloody noses. But I have trained in Japan and South Korea where they seem to be... more hardcore.

Name and shame the schools! I may have been there, or know of them.

I'm not trying to say all Aikido (or clubs) is (are) good - that's impossible a statement. What I am trying to say is not all Aikido (clubs) is (are) bad :).
Click to expand...

Hands up if the Police are massively restricted in what they can and can't do, unless **** hits the fan in which case all that non sense goes out the window. Why would you think that the Police, who are forced to hold back, are a good example of whether or not the martial art is a good one? I know at least three police officers and every bouncer I have ever had dealings with who are forced to attend these silly classes quickly dismiss them once out in real situations.

meghatronic said:
Personally? Quite a few times, only once for >5 seconds though. I've also had bones broken (every toe, cracked ribs, dislocated shoulders and thumbs) and broken bones. I've also had a few black eyes and bloody noses. But I have trained in Japan and South Korea where they seem to be... more hardcore.
Click to expand...

This surprises me massively and is the first time I have ever heard of such a thing occurring in Aikido.

UWE Aikido Club was the last one a few years ago, it was awful and my friends who did go ended up looking very silly.
 
Rroff said:
From what I've seen Aikido doesn't work so well in reality to this end against a determined opponent - it works for the police etc. as they can use the time it buys to handcuff the person, or subdue them with numbers and so on, in a real street fight its more likely to end up with fighting on the floor, etc. which isn't really a position you want to be in.
Click to expand...

Exactly, holding the police up as an example is really very silly, especially considering most officers I have encountered opinions on standard police training.
 
Rroff said:
From what I've seen Aikido doesn't work so well in reality to this end against a determined opponent - it works for the police etc. as they can use the time it buys to handcuff the person, or subdue them with numbers and so on, in a real street fight its more likely to end up with fighting on the floor, etc. which isn't really a position you want to be in.
Click to expand...
If you are willing to accept that technique x works for the police, and they can handcuff the person from it working, then technique x could be taken further... snap/choke/etc. Person isn't getting up. The police obviously can't do this. But in this hypothetical situation, the Aikidoman can.
 
Rroff said:
From what I've seen Aikido doesn't work so well in reality to this end against a determined opponent - it works for the police etc. as they can use the time it buys to handcuff the person, or subdue them with numbers and so on, in a real street fight its more likely to end up with fighting on the floor, etc. which isn't really a position you want to be in.
Click to expand...

Again this is true of any martial art.

Unarmed combat to be effective needs a range of styles and techniques. Like I said, the best style in a real fight, is no style at all.
 
meghatronic said:
Or it could have something to do with the rules ;)


Krav Maga is about the worse thing to use for self 'defence' in a real fight though (legally) :D
Click to expand...

Krav Maga is the best martial art and the one I would be training if I wanted it for pure self defence and I had no interest in competing.
 
hurfdurf said:
Krav Maga is the best martial art and the one I would be training if I wanted it for pure self defence and I had no interest in competing.
Click to expand...

That depends on how it is taught, it is best when mixed with other styles (which to a degree it is). There really is no such thing as a "best" martial art, it depends on too many variables.
 
meghatronic said:
If you are willing to accept that technique x works for the police, and they can handcuff the person from it working, then technique x could be taken further... snap/choke/etc. Person isn't getting up. The police obviously can't do this. But in this hypothetical situation, the Aikidoman can.
Click to expand...

The Police are not allowed to stand and bang unless they absolutely have to, its why they respond in packs. The police are massively restricted in what they are allowed to do.
 
hurfdurf said:
This surprises me massively and is the first time I have ever heard of such a thing occurring in Aikido.
Click to expand...
It's reasonably common in the harder styles. Although injuries are an embarrassment more than anything else.

hurfdurf said:
UWE Aikido Club was the last one a few years ago, it was awful and my friends who did go ended up looking very silly.
Click to expand...
Right, that looks like Tomiki style. As a rule of thumb (and this is me being hypocritical now) Tomiki and Ki style are not exactly what you'd consider 'effective'. This is probably why your opinion is so tainted. Youtube tomiki to see what I mean.

Aikikai (post-war/now) and Yoshinkan (pre-war) are generally what I like. The former, however is an umbrella style, i.e., it will have **** clubs. It really, really helps to have good instruction. The club closest to me (<2 miles) believe the 'magic', and won't appreciate it's just physics.
 
There is also the small matter of getting the suspect into the position to apply a wrist lock in the first place. Perhpas OK for some subjects who are being a little bit forceful but if a suspect is outright fighting the police its going to take a fair bit of brute force (and maybe a bit of CS gas) and it will get messy before the wrist lock can be applied.
 
hurfdurf said:
Krav Maga is the best martial art and the one I would be training if I wanted it for pure self defence and I had no interest in competing.
Click to expand...
I didn't say it wasn't the best to protect yourself. I did however suggest it was about the worst martial art you could use to defend yourself, as almost everything I've done with them would have me jailed, even if I was defending myself.
 
dowie said:
There is also the small matter of getting the suspect into the position to apply a wrist lock in the first place. Perhpas OK for some subjects who are being a little bit forceful but if a suspect is outright fighting the police its going to take a fair bit of brute force (and maybe a bit of CS gas) and it will get messy before the wrist lock can be applied.
Click to expand...
From what we taught it was when they grab you or your equipment, or are grabbing someone else. It is incredibly easy to execute wrist locks from grabs.
They're next to useless if someone is punching/kicking/attacking unless you can block or parry. Which we didn't teach. Which is why they're in packs and armed (pepper/CS/asp/tazer/gun).
 
meghatronic said:
It's reasonably common in the harder styles. Although injuries are an embarrassment more than anything else.
Click to expand...

Its also common in 'Jitsu' a sort of bastardised form of Judo and Aikido which at one point was claiming to be traditional japanese ju jitsu and has seemingly spread throughout the UK's universities. Its essentially just compliant drills again but they do throw in a bit of randori every so often (with their own judo rule set.)

The injuries are not really a measure of the effectiveness of the art, rather a measure of the narcissism of the higher grades within the art (though they are all quite adept at breakfalling.)
 
meghatronic said:
I didn't say it wasn't the best to protect yourself. I did however suggest it was about the worst martial art you could use to defend yourself, as almost everything I've done with them would have me jailed, even if I was defending myself.
Click to expand...

I have heard the whole going to jail for defending yourself spiel before and in my experience it does not stand up.
 
hurfdurf said:
I have heard the whole going to jail for defending yourself spiel before and in my experience it does not stand up.
Click to expand...
I'd tend to agree generally, but not with the stuff I was shown. I'd need to see more krav maga to comment, but this was throat slamming, ball kneeing, eye goughing stuff. Unless the attackers was armed, I can't see a jury being sympathetic!
 
I dont know how many of you have been in a streetfight, but whatever martial art you have been trained in wont matter a damn, because you either get knocked out, you knock the other guy out or you end up rolling about on the floor trying to gouge each other.

A few years ago two numpties tried to rob me and the wife at knife point, there was no fancy wrist locks or bruce lee stuff, I just punched the guy with the knife in the face, broke his nose, he dropped the knife by reflex, he cant see because his eyes watered up, I was going to smack hom again when he dropped by himself and his mate legged it before I could smack him as well.

No martial arts needed, just anticipation and knowing where to hit someone.
 
dowie said:
The injuries are not really a measure of the effectiveness of the art, rather a measure of the narcissism of the higher grades within the art (though they are all quite adept at breakfalling.)
Click to expand...
In Aikido it's the opposite. I have only once been injured by a blackbelt. That was in Japan and definitely was narcissism or racism. Beginners, however, are your worst nightmare.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom