For the gym rats

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Dj_Jestar said:
A quick google suggests Skip uses/used prohormone.. if he does/did, he's not natty.

Also, compared to pics of pro BB'ers from <60's (i.e. before gear was even discovered).. gear does seem likely.
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Prohormones are not steroids, you might aswell say hes not natty cos he ate 4 chickens a day. Or took a really good multi vitamin. What about ZMA? unnatural doses of Zinc and Magnesium that boosts testosterone, that not natural either then? I think the distinction between natty and enhanced is simply whether or not direct hormone has been applied. This includes all illegal/illicit PE drugs but not 90% of otc supplements. IF he used PH's id still consider him natty, trust me on this, where a PH gives you maybe a 1-5% boost if any, Steroids give several 100%'s boost, its not even in the same league
 
weeeeeeeeee im feeling quite good and bad at same time. I am at my all time heaviest 168lbs according to scales about 30mins ago. Its at the end of the day though and im pretty damn full up lol so in morning ill loose a few lbs I guess.

Need to do some cardio I feel like im getting a bit of a gut, not sure if its like cos im proper full up from dinner cos in the morning dont feel as bad. Either way I need to do some cardio at least once a week, I put it off cos its the most boring 45mins of my week!

Quite happy my weight has gone up though need to keep pushing self in gym dont feel my weights are increasing enough at the mo, but this week has been really hard due to shift changes and different work every day so im really feeling it by time I get in. Infact I feel like im nodding off now lol

Bench is around 65kg I think
Squats ive managed 90-100
Leg presses at 300 which im happy! I told lad at work i wanted to hit 300 before xmas so im ahead of schedule.
Deads are poor upto 110 but ive dropped them down to really bang my form out

Think im about 5ft9 as well so not bad really along way to go though. One thing im not happy about is my Bi;s I feel they are lacking any real size :(
 
Ultra_Extreme said:
Prohormones are not steroids, you might aswell say hes not natty cos he ate 4 chickens a day. Or took a really good multi vitamin. What about ZMA? unnatural doses of Zinc and Magnesium that boosts testosterone, that not natural either then? I think the distinction between natty and enhanced is simply whether or not direct hormone has been applied. This includes all illegal/illicit PE drugs but not 90% of otc supplements. IF he used PH's id still consider him natty, trust me on this, where a PH gives you maybe a 1-5% boost if any, Steroids give several 100%'s boost, its not even in the same league
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Regardless of the boost, its classed as non natural. Something like epistane will put your test levels above that which is classed as normal and you would fail a drugs test because of it.
You might not class it as illegal, but the ruling bodies do and they are the ones that people will take notice of :p
 
Morba said:
Regardless of the boost, its classed as non natural. Something like epistane will put your test levels above that which is classed as normal and you would fail a drugs test because of it.
You might not class it as illegal, but the ruling bodies do and they are the ones that people will take notice of :p
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Firstly, im sure you understand this morbs even if your post doesnt come across as such, illegal in sports and illegal in society are two different things, just wanted to highlight that. Second, when talking about natural versus non-natural in a bodybuilding context you cant put epistane, halodrol, M1T etc in the same boat as test, tren, deca etc.

I mean to do so is to consider someone on PH's capable of competing with the Mr Olympias of this world. A steroid is a specific compound, or compound type that has a distinct physiological effect on the human bodys endocrine balance. A prohormone is simply a chemical or nutrient that has an indirect effect on the bodies hormone levels, ZMA as a supplement is still a prohormone, it just isnt classed as such in the popular press.

The fact remains that whilst i agree with your sentiment, in tested competition no drug should be used that manipulates hormone levels, ie powerlifting. In bodybuilding i think the distinction must be drawn betwenn thos substances technically classed as 'Anabolic Steroids ' and all other types. So going back to my initial comment, yes i would call skip lacour natty even if he had taken PH's however im fairly sure he hasnt, he's ultra dedicated to being all natural, it just wouldnt make sense.
 
Ultra_Extreme said:
Firstly, im sure you understand this morbs even if your post doesnt come across as such, illegal in sports and illegal in society are two different things, just wanted to highlight that. Second, when talking about natural versus non-natural in a bodybuilding context you cant put epistane, halodrol, M1T etc in the same boat as test, tren, deca etc.

I mean to do so is to consider someone on PH's capable of competing with the Mr Olympias of this world. A steroid is a specific compound, or compound type that has a distinct physiological effect on the human bodys endocrine balance. A prohormone is simply a chemical or nutrient that has an indirect effect on the bodies hormone levels, ZMA as a supplement is still a prohormone, it just isnt classed as such in the popular press.

The fact remains that whilst i agree with your sentiment, in tested competition no drug should be used that manipulates hormone levels, ie powerlifting. In bodybuilding i think the distinction must be drawn betwenn thos substances technically classed as 'Anabolic Steroids ' and all other types. So going back to my initial comment, yes i would call skip lacour natty even if he had taken PH's however im fairly sure he hasnt, he's ultra dedicated to being all natural, it just wouldnt make sense.
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M1T is in the banned list for BNBF comps is it not?
Infact, here take a look at this: http://www.bnbf.co.uk/banned-list.htm

1T is mentioned as banned. Also, the main other point being this paragraph:

TESTOSTERONE/EPITESTOSTERONE RATIO. The T/E ratio is used to measure the presence of exogenous testosterone, or illicit elevation of testosterone levels. A T/E ratio in excess of 6/1 is ruled as positive, no matter what the cause. Note: Should the use of any substance cause an elevated T/E ratio in excess of the 6/1 limit, the athlete will be ruled as positive (failure).
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Essentially, prohormones will put that T/E ratio into the excess, giving you a fail.

The basics of the rules are this: If your own test levels are enough to make you the man you are, great. If your test has been boosted unnaturally, then not great.

ZMA cannot be compared to a prohormone, im sure you realise that yourself :p
 
i do follow you morba m8, but my questioning is not what some federation deems natty, more what a PERSON should consider natty. There are many compounds that are very effective and are NOT detected in tested federations when used correctly. Is their use then acceptable? I agree that ZMA vs PH's is a slight trivialization of the matter but i claim it still stands as it is the introduction of an unnatural excess of a chemical to boost testosterone.

Essentially im saying that you cant use federation rules or national law to define what is and isnt natural. It is something that should be defined by effect and to that end i dont see anything not classed as an anabolic steroid to be 'unnatural'.

To put some quantification on this, the average human male will produce about 90mg of testosterone per week, epistane has been known to contribute to something like a 5% boost to this level (95mg or so total test)

Dianabol, an anabolic steroid measured in mg, administered at 40mg a day will increase available testosterone in a week to around 300mg total testosterone.

Injecting 2ml of test @ 250mg/ml will increase test to around 550-600mg's total test.

Many top BB'ers will use 1-2g of test per week (gram = 1000mg)

Since muscle is pretty much built on test, and since strength is metered by free testosterone, then its hard to categorise, again outside of competition rulings, PH's as unnatural versus true steroids.
 
Dj_Jestar said:
Prohormones are listed as illegal, right next to Anabolics.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohormone

That tells me it's not natty.
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neither are illegal in the uk, only to sell not have or use.

Also by your interpretation cannabis use would also make you not natural, so would murdering grannies or stealing chocolate? The law has nothing to do with science.
 
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Ultra_Extreme said:
What about ZMA? unnatural doses of Zinc and Magnesium that boosts testosterone
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It still amazes me when people believe in marketing claims without question :(

Firstly, with a well balanced healthy diet you should not be zinc deficient in the first place! If you're not eating a healthy diet, quit bodybuilding. Simple as.

The ZMA study that gets bandied around is this one:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_/ai_54769123

But....Taken from WIKI:
This study was funded by SNAC Systems Inc. (the patent holders) and one of the study's authors (Victor Conte) has equity in this company.
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Jeffstar said:
It still amazes me when people believe in marketing claims without question :(
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Your right ive not actually read any studies to back that up. Are there any? Since you seem to know otherwise have you got any to hand? id be very interested to read. Everything ive heard is anecdotal but ZMA has always seemed to boost my recovery.
 
Ultra_Extreme said:
i do follow you morba m8, but my questioning is not what some federation deems natty, more what a PERSON should consider natty. There are many compounds that are very effective and are NOT detected in tested federations when used correctly. Is their use then acceptable?

Essentially im saying that you cant use federation rules or national law to define what is and isnt natural. It is something that should be defined by effect and to that end i dont see anything not classed as an anabolic steroid to be 'unnatural'.
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Err, surely when we were talking about competitions, the rules of the competition governing bodies is what should be adhered to.
Lots of things wont be detected if the user cycles correctly, but yes, this is still cheating.
When you say used correctly, this could be by using a masking agent (most of which are banned in themselves) or be off cycle long enough for it not to picked up. This is still cheating :]

If we are talking completely outside of competitions, then who cares what is natural or not, its not like you are competiting where it matters :p
 
Good work out today, my weights are going up nicely 7 weeks in now :) Had a bad week last week had a tummy bug and had bum gravy for 2 days! :O

Incline Bench Press close grip – 4x8 20kg plus bar on smith
Incline wide grip Bench – 4x8 - 40kg plus bar on smith
Tricep things – 4x8 - 70 on cable
Dips - 5 x 8 - 2x5kg + bw - 3x10kg + bw
Flys - 4 x 8 - 12.5kg DB
And some cross overs for a pump :D

Felling a lot stronger now, think i could bench 60kg but i'm realy burning out after 5th - 6th rep. Need to get more cals in me i'm puting the weight on but feeling pritty nackerd at night, but i've got 2 weeks of at xmas to do nothing but eat sleep and lift till i can't lift no more :)
 
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