For the gym rats

Status
Not open for further replies.
PAz said:
I found I my body was too straight, now I angle back slightly and try to force the elbows together behind my back (if that makes sense) while keep them pointing outwards. Even replicating the movement now without a bar, I can feel it working the lats.
Click to expand...
I've never had a problem replicating the form it's when I do them it goes wrong :o

I always start in an upright position and lean back slightly as I pull the weight down. Will try leaning back a few more inches and see how that feels.
 
wooow I went training with my mate yesterday who is now a PT after being medically discharged from the marines. I was hurting so bad yesterday lol

Did a load of resistance training for legs to increase speed and strength followed by squats

Upper body circuit training including pressups whilst balancing one hand on a medicine ball, some weird fly type things using 2 barbells in a corner and leaning forwards pulling em apart.

Towel pull ups, cable flyes on a swiss ball all sorts! Feeling pretty damn sore but it was good fun!
 
ethos said:
I find straps (thumbs over the top and not wrapped around the bar) and pulling "from the elbows" helps with pulldowns. Also not using a particually heavy weight.

I go for 12-15 reps on them.

I see a lot of people going silly weight for low reps and all they get it pumped biceps, fail.
Click to expand...

agreed

what amazes me is despite my constant and lengthy explainations of pre exhaust techniques for helping to isolate muscles ill be willing to bet no one applies this to this problem.

Problem: Biceps dominate rowing motions keeping the back underworked.

Solution: Exhaust the biceps with isolation work prior to compound

Details: In order to take the biceps out of the equation and bring the back into play you must pre ehaust the large fibres in the bicep. These are your strongest fibres and the ones that allow you to lift the heaviest weight. These can be fatigued easily with a few short sets (3x5) of very heavy isolation work or the use of a different compound technique. By fatiguing these your body will automatically (outside of your control) engage the back muscles more readily in the exercise.

This is a natural priciple that is somewhat counter intuitive but it works. Try it yourself do your bicep work before back work, keep it heavy and low volume (as you do not want to fatigue all your fibres, or else you wont be able to pull enough to work your back).

Another way to help encage the back in cable rowing movments is to focus on partials at the last third of the concentric portion (pull the cable to your body and only perform the motion from this point to about a foot from the chest and back) this removes the acceleration assistance afforded by the biceps. In a wide grip pull or row the biceps are only the prime movers for about 1/3 - 1/2 of the movement (the first part of the concentric with the arms fully extended) beyond about half way (i reiterate this is a tip for wide pulls/rows only) the back becomes the prime mover anyway with the rear delts playing a large supporting role. Thus by performing the reduced range of motion with lower weight you will find your back and delts get hit intensley with only minor bicep involvment.

Another tip to avoid typical 'ego training' is to ensure with every rep you can hold the bar to your body for a solid few seconds at the top of each repetition. I see lots of people rowing 100kilo but i know none (other than myself :)) who can hold it to their body at the top of every rep for a few seconds, this again imbalances bicep effort versus back and will only make the ratio worse with every train. The reason the 'pro's' are always seen training this way is because this is how they move the most impressive weight and thus the best for fan videos and photo shoots. Off camera they will train mostly with much lighter weights and a strict form as their goal is not shifting huge wights but hitting the muscles as hard as possible!

Have fun :D
 
I'll bear the above in mind next week when doing my back / biceps, see how thing's pan out.

Just have to make sure I don't over work the biceps before hand, otherwise I'll put too much strain on my back presumably.
 
Delvis said:
I'll bear the above in mind next week when doing my back / biceps, see how thing's pan out.

Just have to make sure I don't over work the biceps before hand, otherwise I'll put too much strain on my back presumably.
Click to expand...

Basically if you work your biceps with too much volume (too many reps at too light a weight) you will fatigue both the large and the small motor units in the biceps thus completely fatiguing the muscle. This will make it very difficult to use an appropriate weight in a row or pulldown. The reason i say the priciple is counter intuitive is because rational thought dictates that if your biceps are 'tired' then you will have to use less weight (which is true) which in turn should mean LESS stress on the back (i use 'stress' to mean good muscular strain not dangerous stress). However this logical thinking, like most flawed pseudoscience babble that the uninformed masses regurgitate, is not seeing the whole picture and is presuming the body works in an obvious (and in this case very illogical) manner. To assume that things are so black and white, that there is nothing complex going on when performing a movment is something of an insult to the magnificence of the human machine.

During a repetition the body is constantly reallocating 'effort' between the muscular components of the motion. It is monitoring fatigue levels and issuing contraction commands to different muscles at different rates to best achieve the 'will' of the brain (that will in this case being to row the weight). When the biceps are weakened in pre fatigue the back will recieve more 'effort' (think 'processing time' if your computer minded) which will lead to fuller and more effective stimulation of these muscles. So despite your reduced load on the bar/stack, your back is being stimulated far more strongly and more micro trauma will result this is something that is pretty much AUTOMATED by the body beyond reasonable control which is why it seems so bizzare and illogical yet it is in fact the most practical and logical way for a machine at the apex of millenia of evoloution to perform a task. People just underestimate the deeper complexity of the seemingly simple science of muscle mechanics.
 
I've always been very good at targetting muscles. I can really hit the lats while hardly hitting my biceps. It's kind of like wiggling your ears, or dancing your pecs, takes some practice to get just the individual muscles working.
 
Morba said:
you would have no hope of me pre exhausting bi's before doing back work, it would ruin my back work completely.

isolated back exhaustion would be a much better idea, but kinda hard :p
Click to expand...

dont dismiss it, most people do pre exhaust all wrong and just fatigue the muscle completely. Very low reps with heavy weight. Just enough to take the raw power out of them. Then lower the weight your using for back work and proceed as normal. bad for ego, good for back muscle!
 
oddjob62 said:
I've always been very good at targetting muscles. I can really hit the lats while hardly hitting my biceps. It's kind of like wiggling your ears, or dancing your pecs, takes some practice to get just the individual muscles working.
Click to expand...

Its one thing that surprised me about 'juicing' i gained musch better control over individual muscles almost instantly, very strange to have it just 'happen' like that
 
Jeffstar said:
Same.

Straight arm pulldowns on the lat machine to pre-exhaust the lats followed by Rows or Chins, this really hammers the back!
Click to expand...

I've been thinking of a way to make a lat pull down use less biceps and have come up with something.

Would need a longer version of a rope attachment, atleast as wide as your arm span.
the length of the rope would probably mean sitting or kneeling on the floor rather than on a seat.
start with hands high above you, together.
pull in an outwards motion, so that your arms end up wide beside you.


Never seen a rope attachment long enough, so not sure if that has ever been thought of before!
 
Morba said:
I've been thinking of a way to make a lat pull down use less biceps and have come up with something.
Click to expand...

Another idea could be to hit the lats first with Lat Shrugdowns.
One variation to lat pulldowns that I introduced a few years ago while training a few strength athletes is catching on in a big way in bodybuilding circles. It's called "lat shrug-downs." Using more weight than you can pull down to your chin, attach your hands to the bar with lifting straps and have your partner pull you down so you can hook your legs under the thigh pads. Then "shrug" downward with the weight by activating the lats. Do NOT pull with your arms; leave your arms totally uninvolved. I believe this variation to be more effective than the traditional "full range" pulldowns at developing mass and strength.
Click to expand...
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drsquat10.htm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom