Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

Did the UK's Defence Intelligence Service side with Iraq and Saddam Hussein when they refused to endorse MI6's and Blair's lies? More on this further down.

Wasn't the dossier ostensibly passed on by the JIC which overseas SIS, the Security Service, GCHQ and DIS. What do you even mean by "refuse to endorse" - is there some part of the document where the directors of the other departments have stated "GCHQ endorses this message..."? Where is your evidence for this refusal? And might I also ask what are the "endorsements" from the other services?

You've basically added in a meaningless/ambiguous claim and then you've passed on some story about why a tweet was deleted when in reality you have no idea why it happened.

In other news though the BBC have traveled to the home town of the GRU Colonel and spoken to a people who recognised him.

We keep getting more and more evidence of Russia's involvement and each time your position seems to be to want to believe some alternative narrative based on very little other than the fact it goes against the prevailing view.
 
Are you British mate why are you siding with Russia over your own country?
This is the thing I don't get about conspiracy nuts, they refuse to believe anything their government or the mainstream (AKA credible) media say, but they have no issue believing something another far less credible government say or something an an unregulated news site say lol.
 
You say that with such conviction, as if it is something only Russia can do as being incompetent. Look around you: Every government/administration the world over is incompetent.

We drop bombs killing 50 people and missing the target.

Where are the Skripals and why wont they [be allowed] to talk?

This is straight out of the soviet whataboutism handbook.

The Russian government are an utterly corrupt and authoritarian regime, with little democratic credibility, led by a former KGB officer, with no respect for the rights of their own citizens let alone those from other countries.

There is no comparison. They have serious questions to answer, and you are clearly lost to pro Putin propaganda.
 
This is the thing I don't get about conspiracy nuts, they refuse to believe anything their government or the mainstream (AKA credible) media say, but they have no issue believing something another far less credible government say or something an an unregulated news site say lol.

That's what always gets me too. There is no logic in what they do at all.
 
This is straight out of the soviet whataboutism handbook.

Not an argument.

Russian government are an utterly corrupt

We call them donations here, usually given by lobbyists who pressure governments to change the rules to suit them.

authoritarian regime,

All governments are by default authoritarian. Governments do after all use force to enact Law.


[qupte] with little democratic credibility[/quote]

We have a government in charge with 13.6m votes... All other parties got 18m. We have a party in power on around 30% of the vote. By contrast Putin polls a total of 70% . With all votes he is still on 42%. His approval is staggeringly high. Equally after speaking to Russians, they all answered that he was great (one Kyrgyz woman even describing him as her perfect man).

by a former KGB officer

Not unusual and not an argument.

no respect for the rights of their own citizens let alone those from other countries

Your first point is completely wrong. Russian standards of living have increased drastically since his coming to power. Russian interests are put first and by extension, the people. Contrast that with our people who are ruled by Brussels and where most of our laws are made by an unelected set of politicians who cannot be removed other than by terms. Equally, the benefits of the UK citizens can be overruled by other nations. As to other countries, well recent history shows nobody innocent of such a charge.

is no comparison. They have serious questions to answer, and you are clearly lost to pro Putin propaganda.

So do we, but like a good little sheep you still haven't figured out it may be the person at your back pushing you forward telling you that the person in front is the threat and not considering its the person doing the pushing who is the real enemy.

When Russia does bad, I'm happy to say so, instead we have "Russia bot" "Putin bootlicker" all because to other people the charges don't stack up. Pick up Secret Affair by Mark Curtis ir Enemy Within by Seumus Milne and see what the UK govt is prepared to do with express media backing and the reliance on the stupidity of those in the public to believe them
 
This is the thing I don't get about conspiracy nuts, they refuse to believe anything their government or the mainstream (AKA credible) media say, but they have no issue believing something another far less credible government say or something an an unregulated news site say lol.
i think we have a lot of British people who hate their own country they love Russia for some reason none of them would want to live there though.
 
Not an argument.



We call them donations here, usually given by lobbyists who pressure governments to change the rules to suit them.



All governments are by default authoritarian. Governments do after all use force to enact Law.


We have a government in charge with 13.6m votes... All other parties got 18m. We have a party in power on around 30% of the vote. By contrast Putin polls a total of 70% . With all votes he is still on 42%. His approval is staggeringly high. Equally after speaking to Russians, they all answered that he was great (one Kyrgyz woman even describing him as her perfect man).



Not unusual and not an argument.



Your first point is completely wrong. Russian standards of living have increased drastically since his coming to power. Russian interests are put first and by extension, the people. Contrast that with our people who are ruled by Brussels and where most of our laws are made by an unelected set of politicians who cannot be removed other than by terms. Equally, the benefits of the UK citizens can be overruled by other nations. As to other countries, well recent history shows nobody innocent of such a charge.



So do we, but like a good little sheep you still haven't figured out it may be the person at your back pushing you forward telling you that the person in front is the threat and not considering its the person doing the pushing who is the real enemy.

When Russia does bad, I'm happy to say so, instead we have "Russia bot" "Putin bootlicker" all because to other people the charges don't stack up. Pick up Secret Affair by Mark Curtis ir Enemy Within by Seumus Milne and see what the UK govt is prepared to do with express media backing and the reliance on the stupidity of those in the public to believe them

you're not worth talking too
 
Wasn't the dossier ostensibly passed on by the JIC which overseas SIS, the Security Service, GCHQ and DIS. What do you even mean by "refuse to endorse" - is there some part of the document where the directors of the other departments have stated "GCHQ endorses this message..."? Where is your evidence for this refusal? And might I also ask what are the "endorsements" from the other services?

You've basically added in a meaningless/ambiguous claim and then you've passed on some story about why a tweet was deleted when in reality you have no idea why it happened.


Intelligence provided at the time by MI6 had relied heavily on sources who were subsequently found to lack credibility. Important parts of that evidence, which went into the dossier, was not shown to DIS (Defence Intelligence Staff) whose analysts were experts on WMD and could have pointed out the flaws in the supposed intelligence.

“The SIS report should have been shown to relevant experts in the DIS who could have advised their senior managers and assessment staff” said the report. “Expert officials in the DIS questioned the certainty with which some of the judgments in the dossier were expressed.”

The JIC’s starting basis was to totally ignore the possibility that Iraq may not actually have any WMDs. “At no stage was the hypothesis that Iraq might not have chemical. Biological or nuclear weapons or programmes identified and examined by the JIC… Iraq’s statements that it had no weapons or programmes were dismissed as further evidence of a strategy of denial.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-justify-iraq-war-inquiry-finds-a7122481.html

Questioning the certainty of some judgments rather implies refusal to endorse them. Even if you wish to quibble about that particular point, those three paragraphs alone are damning and make my general point.

I never claimed I knew why the tweet was deleted. I shared an account from Craig Murray who claims he has been informed why it did. It's interesting information, given all this "evidence" (from Bellingcat) does not have either the government's or the MET's official seal of approval (yet), and that it could be considered as possible Russian disinformation fed to Bellingcat. I think it might upset some people, whenever someone points out that the government and MET are not displaying the same faith in Bellingcat's assertions that they hope the public will embrace. It doesn't look good. It looks hypocritical and propaganda-like: you believe it, we won't say we do.



In other news though the BBC have traveled to the home town of the GRU Colonel and spoken to a people who recognised him.

We keep getting more and more evidence of Russia's involvement and each time your position seems to be to want to believe some alternative narrative based on very little other than the fact it goes against the prevailing view.

One woman recognised him. There was a man in the town who said he studied with Peshiga and said it wasn't Boshirov. Others in the town didn't recognize the man/men photos at all. So who is right? And was anyone "planted" by the Russian state, to feed the Boshirov is Chepiga angle? Etc. Not saying that's what happened, but such are the issues with the extent of the "evidence" at present. Again, let's see the government and the MET put their signatures to this and say they agree with Bellingcat. If they aren't willing to, why should I or anyone else?

I'm not sure what the prevailing view is, or isn't. And if by that you mean numbers of people who believe the official narrative, and whether UK or world-wide. Or just those taking part in the discussion in this forum. Or something else entirely. Not terribly important to me anyway.

The men may or may not be GRU. My issue is with the presumption that this has been proven, when it hasn't. And also that if they do turn out to be GRU, with the presumption that they were assassins and not in Salisbury for another purpose they do not wish to disclose. Skripal's personal CCTV and MI5/6 CCTV surveillance of Skripal's home would show exactly what if anything happened but we are not being shown it. It is inconceivable to me there wasn't any but in any case nobody in authority has yet explained its absence. Viktoria Skripal claims Sergei had CCTV, for what it's worth. How she'd know, I have no idea. But to wheel out "track record" and "motive" re: Russia so quickly, and not have any CCTV installed in/around the home of a double-agent, beggars belief. In lieu of an official explanation we are left with weak attempts to answer by members of the public: cost-cutting, etc. You don't let someone like Sergei unmonitored. Even if you don't want to pay for his safety, you care about knowing what he's up to, who's visiting him, his comings and goings, etc. And if I were Sergei, I'd have my own private CCTV system in addition.
 
Questioning the certainty of some judgments rather implies refusal to endorse them. Even if you wish to quibble about that particular point, those three paragraphs alone are damning and make my general point.

It was a meaningless statement and you seemingly can't explain nor back it up. They didn't refuse to endorse anything, not that it is clear what was meant by that in the first place.

I never claimed I knew why the tweet was deleted. I shared an account from Craig Murray

Yes, I know you did, like I said you've passed on some story about why a tweet was deleted when in reality you have no idea why it happened.



Again, let's see the government and the MET put their signatures to this and say they agree with Bellingcat. If they aren't willing to, why should I or anyone else?

why do they need to? I realise we live in a world with 24/7 news but the government doesn't need to release everything they know about the case

The men may or may not be GRU. My issue is with the presumption that this has been proven, when it hasn't. And also that if they do turn out to be GRU, with the presumption that they were assassins and not in Salisbury for another purpose they do not wish to disclose.

Seems pretty obvious they were GRU by now, as for that last bit - they just happened to be in Sailsbury as a Russian double agent got killed... right...
 
Do I believe the Russian Government? No.
Do I believe the British Government? No.
Will us plebs get the whole story? No.
 
And... Naturally you have incontrovertible proof of this?

At best we have:
i) what the UK govt tell us

I didn't claim we had proof, but it seems pretty obvious they are. They might be FSB... and one guy just happens to have a GRU doppelgänger who was awarded Russia's top gong for whatever he did on some secretive operation (presumably in Ukraine).
 
I didn't claim we had proof

But surely dowie if we have proof we can make such a claim. If proof comes out fair enough. We have not heard a peep from the Skripals other than the call released by the Russians. The letter was released by the Met. It was very questionable. Various people questioned the wording either way. It reached a stalemate.

but it seems pretty obvious they are

It doesn't seem obvious at all. It is pure histrionic speculation. I read an awful lot of books, permeated by Horus Heresy sci-fi as a detox after every 3-4 politically notional books. My current book is The Enemy Within, it spells out clearly the depths the Govt is prepared to go to along with media and judicial complicity. Arms of government not pushing evidence but pushing speculation to form an obnubilate certainty that fractures on inspection.

As an example:
The two claimed they followed into the same lane (the identical picture 16:22:43), UK govt said different lanes. Forensic analysis (Blackwater I think they are called) did a "fingerprint" on camera blemishes (that are 100% as unique as a finger print) and the image has the same camera blemishes indicating it was the same camera as the blemishes were a perfect match. Thus the credibility of the images is at the utmost; highly dubious.

might be FSB

They might be MI5 assets... They might, heaven forbid be tourists wanting to see a 123m high spire, like myself have travelled several hours on foot to go up a tower, in a foreign country.

and one guy just happens to have a GRU doppelgänger who was awarded Russia's top gong for whatever he did on some secretive operation (presumably in Ukraine).

That guy looks nothing like him. To have facial recognition as a definitive certain things I.e. Moles have to fit, images 2 & 3 which were the same person had that mole... Image one lacked it, not to mention other things.
 
Do I believe the Russian Government? No.
Do I believe the British Government? No.
Will us plebs get the whole story? No.

Amen to that. Takes some of the fun out of trying to make sense of it but so true.



It was a meaningless statement and you seemingly can't explain nor back it up. They didn't refuse to endorse anything, not that it is clear what was meant by that in the first place.

It's simple - another poster asked why I was siding with Russia over my own country. My reply was that our own intelligence agencies question each other, doesn't mean they are siding with anyone else, only attempting to determine the truth, which (the truth) is a very good ally for any country to side with. We know that some in the intelligence services lie and hide information from other British intelligence services. This isn't meaningless at all. It's rather concerning. The sort of thing that creates distrust when something like the Skripal incident happens, because some people, myself included, won't automatically believe everything they are told.




Yes, I know you did, like I said you've passed on some story about why a tweet was deleted when in reality you have no idea why it happened.

You continue to attempt to imply I claimed knowledge of what happened, instead of providing information from someone claiming they've been told why, for the forum's viewing and consideration and discussion. I note you aren't discussing the content. You just continue claiming I have no idea, when you apparently don't either, nor are you willing to actually discuss ideas. Why discuss any ideas? Everything the government and Bellingcat say is absolutely true, so let's just argue against any opposing claims and/or scepticism.




why do they need to? I realise we live in a world with 24/7 news but the government doesn't need to release everything they know about the case

The point isn't why they need to. The point is why I need to believe the "prevailing view" as you were arguing, if they won't say they believe it themselves. You're also conflating a simple affirmation of Bellingcat's assertions with releasing everything they know about the case. The first doesn't need to involve the second.




Seems pretty obvious they were GRU by now, as for that last bit - they just happened to be in Sailsbury as a Russian double agent got killed... right...

Wrong. My thoughts are, if they are GRU, it wouldn't be likely at all that they "just happened" to be there. And there's plenty of possible reasons including the following two. For starters - you don't set up patsies without making sure the patsies are present. And second, you don't make Russian intelligence disinterested in Salisbury by holding a large three week-long chemical weapons exercise called Exercise Toxic Dagger involving government, Public Health England, industry scientists, more than 300 military personnel, and simulating wounded prisoners and so on. Boy, luckily they were well prepared for what took place two days before the end of the exercise.

He didn't get killed. Apparently.
 
You continue to attempt to imply I claimed knowledge of what happened, instead of providing information from someone claiming they've been told why, for the forum's viewing and consideration and discussion.

I didn't claim that, for the third time: "like I said you've passed on some story about why a tweet was deleted when in reality you have no idea why it happened."

Wrong. My thoughts are, if they are GRU, it wouldn't be likely at all that they "just happened" to be there. And there's plenty of possible reasons including the following two. For starters - you don't set up patsies without making sure the patsies are present. And second, you don't make Russian intelligence disinterested in Salisbury by holding a large three week-long chemical weapons exercise called Exercise Toxic Dagger involving government, Public Health England, industry scientists, more than 300 military personnel, and simulating wounded prisoners and so on. Boy, luckily they were well prepared for what took place two days before the end of the exercise.

He didn't get killed. Apparently.

This is where it gets into full on CT territory, you want to criticise the rather likely and quite obvious explanation by seemingly considering instead some far fetched idea of these two Russians (who we are now pretty clear are Russian intelligence officer) being set up.

What relevance does the fact a military exercise was taking place have? Who said anything about making Russians disinterested in the area? You realise that Sailsbury Plain is a military training area, at any time there will be military exercises in that area... though the Russians were observed in the town and near Skripals house, you're clutching at straws with this rubbish... how does walking around a town (spending very little time there on the first trip) have any relation to it?

This is the typical conspiraloon approach - be overly skeptical about the rather likely explanations and waste time/deflect with rather irrelevant/unlikely ideas. What do you even mean by setting up patsies - what grounds do you have for that?

You seem to be indicating that you're willing to take seriously some false flag idea where the Russians the police just happened to catch were there for some other purpose (which the police didn't happen to catch - if they were monitoring there exercise then you'd at least expect a vehicle and some radio equipment). Oh and of course the real assassins seemingly managed to evade all the CCTV footage that the police have been checking.
 
one guy just happens to have a GRU doppelgänger who was awarded Russia's top gong for whatever he did
That guy looks nothing like him.
Well, this is a matter that will be solved very soon as in their rush to provide a defense the Russians have effectively checkmated themselves here.

In the next week/two one of two things is going to happen:

1: Russian state TV will air an in person sit down interview with both Ruslan Boshirov and Colonel Anatoliy Chepiga, thus annihilating the British governments allegation and casting significant doubt on the plausibility/validity of their entire story while at the same time propelling Vladimir Putin to his highest approval rating ever and further solidifying the country behind him.
2: That doesn't happen because they are the same person.
 
Well, this is a matter that will be solved very soon as in their rush to provide a defense the Russians have effectively checkmated themselves here.

Or conversely, the UK government will have.

In the next week/two one of two things is going to happen:

1: Russian state TV will air an in person sit down interview with both Ruslan Boshirov and Colonel Anatoliy Chepiga, thus annihilating the British governments allegation and casting significant doubt on the plausibility/validity of their entire story while at the same time propelling Vladimir Putin to his highest approval rating ever and further solidifying the country behind him.

It would be highly unlikely for Russia to put the real Chepiga on air if he is as Bellingscat claim a Russian GRU officer. So that is a bit of a stupendous expectation. Its also a very unrealistic one and one that as it is unlikely to happen would not move the case any further forward.

You seriously think he looks like him? :/

2: That doesn't happen because they are the same person.

Or it doesn't happen because as a special forces soldier, revealing his identity to the world so publicly would be a waste of thousands of hours training and many many thousands in training etc.

Why don't we publicly name out spies/SAS men the same way? Because of the same reasons.
 
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