Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

[Nerusy]

They are sending their report, not sending any ACTUAL sample which is what is required under international law.

I thought they would send a sample to OPCW?

The russians are saying the procedure requires the UK to provide a sample to the them. The UK UN representative said that this is not the case as Russia is not an inspected party.

Could anybody here with more knowledge explain who is right here? I presume there is no straight answer and both parties are using mental gymnastics for the rules to benefit them unless it is really as straightforward as russia not a inspected party and the UK does not need to cooperate with russia on this matter?

 

[StriderX]

It seems the nerve agent was inside the daughters suitcase. The levels of tinfoil in this thread are amazing, this is exactly the type of confusion and obscuring that the Russian state thrives on.

Just like Litvinenko I am certain we will show beyond reasonable doubt Russia is behind this. Or do those who think this is a false flag also think the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko wasn't Russia either?

Well that's the ultimate issue with how you should somehow have infinite faith in this terribly incompetent government after months of saying lots of words and yet nothing of substance. It's all very Orwellian and Cromwell for me, then again i'm a firm disbeliever in the state and patriotism.

It's rather too bad that Russia is the perfect example of what's wrong with those two things, why would we want to emulate it?

There is a rather long list of reasons (hiding documents, disappearing them, leaving them on trains, flat out lying to the voters, keeping reports hidden to save ministers from "being hurt", seemingly infinite power of GCHQ) why a lot of people shouldn't just trust the powers that be, because most certainly do not actually care about reality (lately anyway), just ideology.

 

[Firestar_3x]

I thought they would send a sample to OPCW?

The russians are saying the procedure requires the UK to provide a sample to the them. The UK UN representative said that this is not the case as Russia is not an inspected party.

Could anybody here with more knowledge explain who is right here? I presume there is no straight answer and both parties are using mental gymnastics for the rules to benefit them unless it is really as straightforward as russia not a inspected party and the UK does not need to cooperate with russia on this matter?

Borris said the other day:

A sample is being sent to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons - the independent international body set up to stop chemical warfare - for analysis, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has since said.

As to the other point no idea who is right, but i know who i'm more likely to believe.

"Yulia arrived in the UK at 2.40pm on 3 March – 24 hours before the pair fell ill."

speculation that it might have been a clothing item (only put it on before going out for dinner?) or a gift (maybe they just opened it?)

Thanks, must have been contained within a perfume perhaps, otherwise i would expect her to fall ill well before him.

 

[Rroff]

Thanks, must have been contained within a perfume perhaps, otherwise i would expect her to fall ill well before him.

Toxins can have different impacts on different people - I know very little about the specific nerve agents in question but often stuff like this no two people have identical time before noticeable symptoms and from that to death when it is fatal.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Toxins can have different impacts on different people - I know very little about the specific nerve agents in question but often stuff like this no two people have identical time before noticeable symptoms and from that to death when it is fatal.

Agree, however these agents are apparently faster acting than others, you would expect upon arrival in the UK she opened her suitcase at some point on the 3rd (afternoon or evening), for her not to fall ill well before the other person makes me think the nerve agent wasn't simply put on an item of her clothing, it must have been contained within something which was only used on the 4th.

Perhaps she was forced to do this for some reason and knowingly imported the agents under duress.

 

[Hades]

I'm guessing it was in the perfume. She would have put it on just before going out and he would probably have kissed kissed her on the cheek.

 

[StriderX]

Agree, however these agents are apparently faster acting than others, you would expect upon arrival in the UK she opened her suitcase at some point on the 3rd (afternoon or evening), for her not to fall ill well before the other person makes me think the nerve agent wasn't simply put on an item of her clothing, it must have been contained within something which was only used on the 4th.

Perhaps she was forced to do this for some reason and knowingly imported the agents under duress.

If it's fast acting, why arent they dead?

 

[gettothechopper]

will depend on the dose and the exposure

its why using it as a gas (for example in an artillery shell) is effective, because you breathing in nothing but a pure form of whatever carries it straight into your lungs and blood stream

secondary exposure id imagine is weaker also - hence the faster recovery of the police officer

 

[Firestar_3x]

If it's fast acting, why arent they dead?

What are you expecting instant death? We have no metric to compare the state of bodily function failure in this pair due to exposure of this particular agent vs exposure to another apparently slower acting agent, but they would be dead already hadn't they been given the relevant drugs and medical attention.

 

[StriderX]

will depend on the dose and the exposure

its why using it as a gas (for example in an artillery shell) is effective, because you breathing in nothing but a pure form of whatever carries it straight into your lungs and blood stream

secondary exposure id imagine is weaker also - hence the faster recovery of the police officer

Well i guess it would depend on the substance, as VX acts faster if its on your skin rather than breathed in.

 

[MookJong]

Well that's the ultimate issue with how you should somehow have infinite faith in this terribly incompetent government after months of saying lots of words and yet nothing of substance. It's all very Orwellian and Cromwell for me, then again i'm a firm disbeliever in the state and patriotism.

It's rather too bad that Russia is the perfect example of what's wrong with those two things, why would we want to emulate it?

There is a rather long list of reasons (hiding documents, disappearing them, leaving them on trains, flat out lying to the voters, keeping reports hidden to save ministers from "being hurt", seemingly infinite power of GCHQ) why a lot of people shouldn't just trust the powers that be, because most certainly do not actually care about reality (lately anyway), just ideology.

So Russia you agree is a rogue state we should not emulate, but also that our government is is incompetent. Yet you are sceptical as to Russia's involvement and find it just as likely our incompetent government has masterminded a false flag conspiracy?

A conspiracy that would need to involve a number of British citizens at many levels to achieve. We would need to obtain or manufacture a strain of nerve agent identical to one Russia has produced. Others have suggested this could be done at Porten Down. How are you explaining this? Then you would need someone to get the nerve agent into the daughters suitcase. This would take serious logistics to intercept her bag. Or are you saying the suitcase is a fake story and huge swathes of the police and have been coerced into helping the state pull this off?

You can't just say "conspiracies have existed in the past, so this is probably one". How are you proposing this was carried out? Why would anyone risk the huge lengths it would take to produce an illegal weapon and then endanger the lives of the public to administer it in such an unpredictable way? Who are you saying is in the know? May and Boris Johnson are in on it? What about labour MPs who think Russia did it?

Your problem is not that you don't think Russia could have done this. It seems to me that you have a problem with the government of this country and think so lowly of them that you'd rather sit in a grey area than be seen to back them by calling out what is fairly obvious has happened.

 

[StriderX]

So Russia you agree is a rogue state we should not emulate, and also that our government is is incompitant. Yet you are sceptical as to Russias involvement and find it just as likely our incompetent government has masterminded a false flag conspiracy?

A conspiracy that would need to involve a number of British citizens at many levels to achieve. We would need to obtain or manufacture a strain of nerve agent identical to one Russia has produced. Others have suggested this could be done at Porten Down. How are you explaining this? Then you would need someone to get the nerve agent into the daughters suitcase. This would take serious logistics to intercept her bag. Or are you saying the suitcase is a fake story and huge swathes of the police and have been coerced into helping the state pull this off?

You can't just say "conspiracies have existed in the past, so this is probably one". How are you proposing this was carried out? Why would anyone risk the huge lengths it would take to produce an illegal weapon and then endanger the lives of the public to administer it in such an unpredictable way? Who are you saying is in the know? May and Boris Johnson are in on it? What about labour MPs who think Russia did it?

Your problem is not that you don't think Russia could have done this, It's clear that you have a problem with the government of this country and think so lowly of them that you would rather sit in a grey area than be seen to back them by calling out what is fairly obvious has happened.

I'm always skeptical, no one but myself deserves anything other than doubt, unless they can back it up with evidence. Maybe that's naive to ask of a state, but **** em, they still dont deserve it.

I'm also not saying it's a conspiracy, even if it is one, it'd probably be Russia at the center of it considering the last decade, doesn't mean i wont ignore the last century of awkward actions by both the US and UK in foreign affairs, it doesn't scream "I should believe 110% of the government's responses from now on". Nor am i saying it isn't Russia, but it tends to bring out the cold war racists and it's annoying.

You are putting words into my mouth (or keyboard), because you have a huge bias as far as i'm concerned, i'd hazard to say that you're one of the "anyone else is commie pinko traitor" types that makes the discussion worthless having, but we don't live in Russia thankfully and nuance is important. Whenever i feel like the nuclear fires are being stoked, i won't just jump closer to it like some want to (yes yes, it likely wont happen, but it could).

 

[MookJong]

I'm always skeptical, no one but myself deserves anything other than doubt, unless they can back it up with evidence. Maybe that's naive to ask of a state, but **** em, they still dont deserve it.

I'm also not saying it's a conspiracy, even if it is one, it'd probably be Russia at the center of it considering the last decade, doesn't mean i wont ignore the last century of awkward actions by both the US and UK in foreign affairs, it doesn't scream "I should believe 110% of the government's responses from now on". Nor am i saying it isn't Russia, but it tends to bring out the cold war racists and it's annoying.

You are putting words into my mouth (or keyboard), because you have a huge bias as far as i'm concerned, i'd hazard to say that you're one of the "anyone else is commie pinko traitor" types that makes the discussion worthless having, but we don't live in Russia thankfully and nuance is important. Whenever i feel like the nuclear fires are being stoked, i won't just jump closer to it like some want to (yes yes, it likely wont happen, but it could).

So it turns out we are both actually on the same page, now you have been a bit more focused in your thinking. I was worried May would call article 5 and involve NATO in this affair. I'm please to see that a measured approach has been taken. I'm far from wanting any war drums sounded, but I am also worried by the Corbyn style responses. This was a completely reckless act and we are lucky that only one other person has been hurt aside from the intended targets. The people who did this knew that a deadly nerve agent was likely to be released into the wild and clearly had complete disregard for our population.This sends a clear message as far as I'm concerned and needs unilateral condemnation.

I've visited Russia twice and intend to go back again. I'm fascinated by the country and I hate to hear that British travellers are warned it could be dangerous to travel there again. Sorry to break your image of me but I am a rationalist...not a nationalist.

 

[VincentHanna]

A Corbyn style response is to point out how dangerous Russia is, but establish the full facts before we do something stupid...

We all condemn the suspected poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Salisbury. This was a deeply alarming attack that appalled the country and raises very serious questions. Nobody on the streets of Britain should ever face such an attack.

“There must be a thorough investigation into these shocking events. We need to see both the evidence and a full account from the Russian authorities in light of the emerging facts.

“Huge fortunes, often acquired in the most dubious circumstances in Russia, sometimes connected with criminal elements, have ended up sheltering in London and trying to buy political influence in British party politics.

“The Government could be taking action to introduce new financial sanctions powers. But instead they’re currently resisting Labour’s amendments to the sanctions and money laundering bill which could introduce the Magnitsky powers.

“The local community and public services involved need reassurance and resources. And the action the Government takes, once the facts are clear, needs to be both decisive and proportionate, and focused on reducing conflicts and tensions rather than increasing them.”

 

[Rroff]

A Corbyn style response is to point out how dangerous Russia is, but establish the full facts before we do something stupid...

Problem is he with matters like this he believes, fully and unconditionally, everything can be resolved with talk - while his talk about not rushing to hasty judgement isn't unfair as far as it goes he'd most likely still be trying to talk and advocating ways to do that while the bombs were dropping if it came to it.

 

[gettothechopper]

I doubt anyone disagrees with him about being careful and being certain before action - sure

but then why is he adding speculation about the mafia etc without any evidense to support that conclusion?

Also conflating Iraq - invasion of a country and removing its regime based on some flimsey evidence, with expelling 23 suspected russian spies after a suspected attack on people in the UK - they are nothing alike whatsoever

I am convinced this week after his poor PMQ statement, that there is no circumstance in which he would act,
he could have used this incident as a way of disproving peoples opinions that he is weak on defence, but instead has confirmed it
I will point out here that I voted Labour at the last election (purely due to a misplaced assumption that they would fight brexit (or at least against a hard brexit) - something else which he has been weak on

 

[VincentHanna]

?

He supported the expulsion of 23 'diplomats'

 

[Sankari]

A Russian chemist who helped develop the Soviet-era nerve agent used to poison a former Russian double agent in southern England said only the Russian Government could have carried out the attack with such a deadly and advanced toxin.

Vil Mirzayanov, 83, said he had no doubt Russian President Vladimir Putin was responsible, given Russia maintained tight control over its Novichok stockpile and that the agent is too complicated for a non-state actor to have weaponised.

(Source).

 

[gettothechopper]

?

He supported the expulsion of 23 'diplomats'

Who are suspected of being 'undeclared intelligence officers'

 

[VincentHanna]

I meant to put quotations indicating they clearly aren't diplomats.

Either way, Corbyn supported their expulsion.