Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

Soldato
Joined
26 Aug 2013
Posts
8,393
Well you might have missed the latest - the Swiss OPCW lab sent information to the Russians about their own findings, which were never included in the report. The Swiss found the BZ incapacitating agent in the samples, along with the now "unnamed agent" referred to as 'Novichok', or A-234. Russia has asked the OPCW for an explanation.

We could have a half-truth at play, and an OPCW cover-up. Did the OPCW report confirm the findings of Porton Down? Yes - they found the 'Novichok'. Did the OPCW report mention that BZ was also found in the samples and that the Swiss expressed surprise at the purity of the 'Novichok', casting some doubt that it was used on March 4th? No.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-by-substance-russia-never-made-idUKKBN1HL17G

There's a lot of talk now about how the effects of BZ match the witnesses' description of the Skripals on the bench, with the daughter "flapping" her arm and so on, disorientation, and how it can induce comas of up to 120 hours, and how sedation may also later be needed to combat hallucinations. Actually watched an ITV Yorskhire documentary called Bad Trip to Edgewood over 20 years ago, which showed footage of tests carried out on American soldiers at Edgewood, including BZ. Just found it on Youtube and going to re-watch.

 
Soldato
Joined
29 Jul 2010
Posts
23,836
Location
Lincs
Lavrov would not make such a claim if it weren't true

And there in that one sentence your entire nonsensical CT theories come crashing down like a house of cards

I honestly don't understand how you can hold a straight face when accusing everyone else of being gullible sheeple because they believe everything the [western] media and Govts tell them, whilst simultaneously believing everything the [Russian] media and Govt tells you
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Oct 2004
Posts
13,104
Location
Nottingham
It could well be that some of the members have indeed half-truthed the report. In any case, they will now have to explain why that information was omitted.

If the other labs failed to reproduce the same findings then its probably rejected as an outlier thats possibly been contaminated in the testing lab.
 
Caporegime
Joined
23 Dec 2011
Posts
32,970
Location
Northern England
If the other labs failed to reproduce the same findings then its probably rejected as an outlier thats possibly been contaminated in the testing lab.

Which is the conspiracy nut fuel. 99 out of 100 could agree on something and to you or I that 1 out of 100 would be a statistical outlier - a contaminated or corrupted result. To the conspiracy nut it's that correct answer and the other 99 are wrong.
 
Soldato
Joined
26 Aug 2013
Posts
8,393
If the other labs failed to reproduce the same findings then its probably rejected as an outlier thats possibly been contaminated in the testing lab.

Remains to be seen whether the other labs (there were four, I believe) also tested for BZ and/or other agents, or simply tested to confirm the 'novichok'. It would also throw the reliability of OPCW accredited labs into question. They are not supposed to get this stuff wrong. But fair enough, we'll see.

Is there a BBC or Sky News article on this yet?
 
Last edited:
Man of Honour
Joined
17 Oct 2002
Posts
50,385
Location
Plymouth
And there in that one sentence your entire nonsensical CT theories come crashing down like a house of cards

I honestly don't understand how you can hold a straight face when accusing everyone else of being gullible sheeple because they believe everything the [western] media and Govts tell them, whilst simultaneously believing everything the [Russian] media and Govt tells you

Idiots do idiot things because they're idiots is the most likely explanation.

We need to move away from this idea that every opinion, no matter how crazy or irrational, may have merit. In most cases, the person presenting it is just wrong.
 
Soldato
Joined
22 Nov 2006
Posts
23,684
If the other labs failed to reproduce the same findings then its probably rejected as an outlier thats possibly been contaminated in the testing lab.

They they will send it to a number of labs, but they won't always all get the same results. It's expected which is why they do it like that. Nerve agent isn't easy to identify afaik.

Whatever happens, Russia will deny or try to counter it. How they are acting is the classic behavior of a liar who's lies aren't working. I mean...even the body language and reactions to questions from some of their politicians is a dead giveaway. They know Russia is guilty, or know they have to tow the party line or else.
 
Last edited:
Permabanned
Joined
24 Jul 2016
Posts
7,412
Location
South West
Russian news may be biased – but so is much western media - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/02/russian-propaganda-western-media-manipulation

Whatever the accuracy, or lack thereof, of RT and whatever its actual impact on western audiences, one of the problems with these kinds of arguments is that they fall straight into the trap of presenting media that are aligned with official adversaries as inherently propagandistic and deceitful, while the output of “our” media is presumed to be objective and truthful. Moreover, the impression given is that our governments engage in truthful “public relations”, “strategic communication” and “public diplomacy” while the Russians lie through “propaganda”.

Neither of these claims has significant academic support. A substantial body of research conducted over many decades highlights the proximity between western news media and their respective governments, especially in the realm of foreign affairs. For reasons that include overreliance on government officials as news sources, economic constraints, the imperatives of big business and good old-fashioned patriotism, mainstream western media frequently fail to meet democratic expectations regarding independence. In our own study of UK media coverage of the 2003 Iraq invasion, Manchester University found that most UK mainstream media performed to reinforce official views rather than to challenge them.

As for the supposedly benign communication activities of our own governments – again, there are ample grounds to challenge the understanding that the “strategic communication” activities of our governments can be understood as free from the kind of manipulative “propaganda” of which the Russian government is accused. Indeed western governments frequently engage in strategies of manipulation through deception involving exaggeration, omission and misdirection. This was recently observed quite clearly during the run-up to the Iraq war when intelligence was manipulated in order to mobilise public support for the Iraq invasion.

Moreover, the recent Chilcot report describes how, in the early days after 9/11 “regime-change hawks” in Washington argued that “a coalition put together for one purpose (against international terrorism) could be used to clear up other problems in the region”. Tony Blair had discussed how phases 1 and 2 of the “war on terror” would require a “dedicated tightly knit propaganda unit”.

One might reasonably conclude from all this evidence that the western public fell foul of a major deceptive propaganda campaign which involved exploiting terrorism threats in order to “clear up other problems” and which was instigated by our own governments and communicated through “our” media. Propaganda and deception is not, it would appear, the sole preserve of non-western states; it is alive and well in western democracies.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
22 Nov 2006
Posts
23,684
Russian news isn't just biased, it's propaganda and state run...

You can't trust news outlets (e.g. RT) when the Russian government is telling them what to say. Literally no other international news site is agreeing with the Russian press.
 
Permabanned
Joined
24 Jul 2016
Posts
7,412
Location
South West
Russian news isn't just biased, it's propaganda and state run...

You can't trust news outlets (e.g. RT) when the Russian government is telling them what to say. Literally no other international news site is agreeing with the Russian press.
That is your opinion which may be right or wrong but we also have been known to be very active in propaganda for many years.

Tony Blair had discussed how phases 1 and 2 of the “war on terror” would require a “dedicated tightly knit propaganda unit

Unless you are willing to believe that all of a sudden we have learned the error of our ways and are no longer involved in such practices. Say what you want about Russia but I'm pretty certain Western countries have had a hand in more bloodshed and dodgy dealings than Russia, China, North Korea and any other "rogue state" combined. In fact I'm pretty sure that is exactly what Chomsky meant when he described the U.S. as the leading terrorist state.
http://www.euronews.com/2015/04/17/chomsky-says-us-is-world-s-biggest-terrorist

Isabelle Kumar: “That’s brings me to the subject of terrorism then. Because that is really a global blight and some people, I think including yourself, will say that this is blowback for US terrorist policy around the world. How far is the US and its allies responsible for what we’re seeing now in terms of the terrorist attacks around the world?”

Noam Chomsky: “Remember the worst terrorist campaign in the world by far is the one that’s being orchestrated in Washington. That’s the global assassination campaign. There’s never been a terrorist campaign of that scale.”

Isabelle Kumar: “When you say global assassination campaign…?”

Noam Chomsky: “The drone campaign – that’s exactly what it is. Over large parts of the world, the United States is systematically, publically, openly – there’s nothing secret about what I’m saying, we all know it – it’s carrying out regular campaigns to assassinated people who the US government suspects of intending to harm it someday. And indeed it is, as you mentioned, a terror generated campaign, and when you bomb a village in Yemen, say, and you kill somebody – maybe the person you were aiming at maybe not – and other people who happened to be in the neighbourhood – how do you think they are going to react? They’re going to take revenge.”

Isabelle Kumar: “You describe the US as the leading terrorist state. Where does Europe fit into that picture then?”

Noam Chomsky: “Well, that’s an interesting question. So for example there was recently a study. I think it was done by the Open Society Foundation… the worst form of torture is rendition. Rendition means you take somebody you suspect of something, and you send them off to your favourite dictator, maybe Assad or Gadaffi or Mubarak, to be tortured, hoping that maybe something will come out of it. That’s extraordinary rendition. The study reviewed the countries that participated in this, well obviously the Middle East dictatorships because that’s where they were sent to be tortured, and Europe. Most of Europe participated; England, Sweden, other countries. In fact, there’s only one region in the world where nobody participated: Latin America. Which is pretty dramatic. And first of all Latin America has now become pretty much out of US control. When it was controlled by the United States, not very long ago, it was the world’s centre of torture. Now, it didn’t participate in the worst form of torture, which is rendition. Europe participated. If the master roars, the servants cower.”

Isabelle Kumar: “So Europe is the servant of the United States?”

Noam Chomsky: “ Definitely. They are too cowardly to take an independent position.”

Isabelle Kumar: “Where does Vladimir Putin fit into this picture? He’s painted as one of the greatest threats to security. Is he?”

Noam Chomsky: “Like most leaders, he’s a threat to his own population. He’s taken illegal actions, obviously. But to depict him as a crazed monster who is suffering from brain disease and has Alzheimer’s, and is a rat-faced evil creature, that’s standard Orwellian fanaticism. I mean, whatever you think about his policies, they are understandable. The idea that Ukraine might join a Western military alliance would be quite unacceptable to any Russian leader. This goes back to 1990 when the Soviet Union collapsed. There was a question about what would happen with NATO. Now Gorbachov agreed to allow Germany to be unified and to join NATO. It was a pretty remarkable concession with a quid pro quo: that NATO would not expand one inch to the east. That was the phrase that was used.”

Isabelle Kumar: “So Russia has been provoked?”

Noam Chomsky: “Well, what happened? NATO instantly moved into East Germany and then Clinton came along and expanded NATO right to the borders of Russia. Now, the new Ukrainian government, the government established after the overthrow of the preceding one, now the parliament voted 300 to 8 or something like that, to move to join NATO.”

“Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.” Naom Chomsky
 

SPG

SPG

Soldato
Joined
28 Jul 2010
Posts
10,359
Its not an opinion... its a FACT.

Deal with the fact Russia tells its people and the world what Russia wants.
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,934
Russian news isn't just biased, it's propaganda and state run...

You can't trust news outlets (e.g. RT) when the Russian government is telling them what to say. Literally no other international news site is agreeing with the Russian press.
That is your opinion which may be right or wrong but we also have been known to be very active in propaganda for many years.

LOL, it isn't just an opinion, their mainstream media is tightly controlled by the state - it isn't even comparable. They do have some journalists who oppose the regimen, it isn't uncommon for them to end up dead.
 
Permabanned
Joined
24 Jul 2016
Posts
7,412
Location
South West
LOL, it isn't just an opinion, their mainstream media is tightly controlled by the state - it isn't even comparable. They do have some journalists who oppose the regimen, it isn't uncommon for them to end up dead.
So what about all the information that points to our use of propaganda? They do it but certainly not us absolutely not. Seriously?

I mean Tony Blair has been quoted as saying just that. I'll quote it again as people seem to be very selective about what they want to read.
Tony Blair had discussed how phases 1 and 2 of the “war on terror” would require a “dedicated tightly knit propaganda unit
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,934
So what about all the information that points to our use of propaganda? They do it but certainly not us absolutely not. Seriously?

you're going to have to be more specific - are you talking about Boris Johnson getting a bit carried away in a German interview?
 
Soldato
Joined
26 Aug 2013
Posts
8,393
The ten commandments of British propaganda according to Lord Arthur Ponsonby (1928):

  1. We do not want war.
  2. The opposite party alone is guilty of war.
  3. The enemy is the face of the devil.
  4. We defend a noble cause, not our own interest.
  5. The enemy systematically commits cruelties; our mishaps are involuntary.
  6. The enemy uses forbidden weapons.
  7. We suffer small losses, those of the enemy are enormous.
  8. Artists and intellectuals back our cause.
  9. Our cause is sacred.
  10. All who doubt our propaganda, are traitors.
 
Permabanned
Joined
24 Jul 2016
Posts
7,412
Location
South West
you're going to have to be more specific - are you talking about Boris Johnson getting a bit carried away in a German interview?
No Boris is just a mouth piece go back and have a look at what I've posted.

These are confusing times for consumers of the news, and the issue of which media outlets should be trusted is as demanding and critical as ever. Given the level of conflict and potential conflict in the world today, plus pressing global issues regarding environmental crisis, poverty and resources, it is essential that people learn to navigate the media and defend themselves against manipulation. The first step towards becoming more informed is to avoid seeing our governments and media as free from manipulation while demonising “foreign” governments and media as full of propagandistic lies.


The second step is to recognise that one can gain useful insights and information from a variety of news sources – including those that are derided as “propaganda” outlets: Russia Today, al-Jazeera and Press TV should certainly not be off-limits. Mainstream media, wherever it may be based, is widely acknowledged to be overly deferential to political and economic power and that means, as consumers of news, we also need to think about exploring alternative news and information sites such as Media Lens and Spinwatch. And, more broadly, we need to become more aware of the strategies of manipulation that all governments employ in order to shape opinions and conduct.

In an age when thinktanks and “public relations” experts dominate media output, it might also be time to engage academics more fully as sources of (relatively) independent comment and analysis. These steps might strike many as all too demanding and time consuming, but we live in demanding times and the stakes are getting higher every year. The need for the public to become informed and defend itself against manipulation is greater than ever.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/02/russian-propaganda-western-media-manipulation

Take a look at what Noam Chomsky has wrote and talked about extensively, look at his sources look at other sources, try looking at the picture without media driven tinted glasses.

The Age of Propaganda - https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/munitions-of-the-mind/2016/06/30/the-age-of-propaganda/

Although widely recognised, theorised and researched during the first decades of the twentieth century, propaganda has slid from scholarly attention. With the rise of Public Relations (PR) studies in the academy and the dramatic growth of the global PR industry our appreciation of the ways in which our minds can be manipulated has been diminished. Of course, none of this has been an accident. As Edward Bernays, the founding father of contemporary PR, explained ‘propaganda got to be a bad word because of the Germans … using it [during the First World War]. So what I did was to … find some other words. So we found the words Counsel on Public Relations.’ Today our attention is distracted by the array of euphemisms now in circulation, most of which, as the late British historian of propaganda, Professor Philip M. Taylor, noted, are designed to eclipse the fact that democracies engage in propaganda as a matter of routine. Strategic communication, perception management, psychological operations, information and influence operations – the list goes on – are just some of the labels in use to describe activities that would have once been described as propaganda.

This euphemism game is a real problem because it has worked against serious academic and public engagement with the strategies of manipulation that now play such a major role in the exercise of power, whether in our democracies or in the authoritarian states who are the ‘usual suspects’ when accusations of propaganda are made. The last 15 years of the post 9/11 ‘war on terror’ are testament to the extent to which propaganda is ubiquitous in the contemporary world. The 2003 invasion of Iraq, for example, now stands as a seminal example of an instance where two governments embarked upon an elaborate and concerted propaganda campaign in order to persuade domestic and global opinion that Saddam Hussein posed a serious Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) threat to the world. As has now been extensively documented, this propaganda involved manipulation of intelligence and exaggerated claims of weapons being deployable with 45 minutes of an order to do so. In short, the British and American publics were manipulated into supporting the invasion of a largely defenceless country that possessed no usable WMD. Public awareness of the plight of the Palestinian peoples in the West Bank and Gaza strip, after a few years of optimism following the 1993 Oslo Accords, would appear to have been clouded by robust propaganda aimed at presenting the conflict as one of Israel’s defence against ideological extremists and terrorists rather than the occupation and progressive take-over of land that is allocated, by international law and the United Nations, to the Palestinians. The possibility of anything approaching a reasonable or just settlement for the Palestinians is rapidly slipping away as the living situation in the Gaza strip worsens and more land is taken from Palestinians in the West Bank. Away from the realm of conflict and war, the role of propaganda and persuasion with respect to the tobacco industry, which worked tirelessly for decades to help obscure the health risks of smoking, and also more recently the fossil fuel industry which has sought to sow seeds of doubt regarding human impact on global warming, highlight the role of propaganda (they call it ‘PR’) in the service of big business. In short, propaganda and the ‘intelligent manipulation of the mind’ play a central role in defining issues of our time, are central to the exercise of power, and have profound implications for how we understand governance and the state of our democracy.

It is time, therefore, for more rather than less engagement with propaganda and it is necessary to reinvigorate both intellectual inquiry into this manipulative form of persuasion and influence, as well as raise public awareness about it. Perhaps of greatest importance is persuading the disciplines of political science and sociology to, once again, take propaganda seriously. For too long these disciplines have relegated propaganda to a sub-field of communication studies and failed to appreciate just how central the concept is to understanding power, hegemony, governance and democracy. We also need to theorise more fully the full range of persuasion and influence strategies in play, including methods of deception as well as coercion and incentivisation. With respect to the latter two methods, it is important for contemporary scholars of propaganda to recognise more fully that persuasion and influence can involve actions as well as words: Western ‘counter-insurgency’ operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are testimony to the use of combinations of physical force (military threats) and incentivisation (money and resources) in order to persuade and influence populations. Finally, and looking forward, the field of propaganda studies needs to engage more fully with ethical concerns. This means a more thorough going exploration of the circumstances in which propaganda is justified and, also, the development of forms of persuasion and influence that, rather than manipulate, work to persuade in a consensual and democratic fashion. Finally, engagement with practitioners and the public is essential. The task of scholarship should be to shape and improve the world and, for the field of propaganda studies, this entails working to improve the ways in which professional communicators conduct themselves and providing publics with the knowledge and skills to defend themselves against manipulation. This was tried once back in the 1930s with the Institute for Propaganda Analysis. It is time is time for this to be tried again.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom