Fuel price discussion thread (was ‘chaos’)

Trifid · 11 Oct 2021 at 10:05

AWPC said:
we need a party who champion motorists not ones which try to make them extinct & remove what little pleasure that can be had by driving your car

The best way to get driving to be enjoyable again is to get people out of cars for unnecessary journeys and onto trains, buses and bikes. Unfortunately the idea that people shouldn't use their car how they want isn't very popular. So people sit in traffic.

Conscript said:
I see. That makes more sense then. But yes, I still don't see the conspiracy angle either.

I can see why small independents may think so out of lack of understanding, but would have thought the big retailers would just mix them and keep their delivery schedules current. I can also see why the big retailers would use this as a excuse to to enable them to hire drivers from overseas.

ianh · 11 Oct 2021 at 16:53

CaptainRAVE said:
People laughed at me when I said there is a supply issue, but it’s clearly not just panic buying that caused the issue. We’re still not back to normal here.

Freakbro said:
You're London/SE aren't you? Isn't it just a case of higher population densities making it harder to get back on top of the problem?

Yeap, I'd say about 90% of the country isn't having any real fuel issues after the initial week of panic buying, it's just the SE still badly effected and thats down to population density and the density of the people there

However, due to the "London is the centre of the known Universe" feeling shown by so many who live there (and close by), we're still getting lots of media reports that "the UK has a fuel problem" when thats absolutely not true for what I'd guess is 90% of the UK, well it sells papers I suppose.

Rroff · 11 Oct 2021 at 16:59

ianh said:
Yeap, I'd say about 90% of the country isn't having any real fuel issues after the initial week of panic buying, it's just the SE still badly effected and thats down to population density and the density of the people there

However, due to the "London is the centre of the known Universe" feeling shown by so many who live there (and close by), we're still getting lots of media reports that "the UK has a fuel problem" when thats absolutely not true for what I'd guess is 90% of the UK, well it sells papers I suppose.

South coast and about 30 miles inland from that is still pretty hit and miss. Starting to see actual supply issues for diesel now though mostly seems to be a mixture of lower supplies, probably due to London pulling away a certain amount, and garages for some reason purposefully turning off diesel at certain times of day.

Everywhere I went past yesterday had petrol and no queues.

Jez · 11 Oct 2021 at 17:01

Not far south east but touching wood Oxfordshire and Berkshire seem finally back to normal bar some recent price increases (seeing 15x more and more, although ASDA in Reading was still at 135). The odd pump with bags over the handles, but no issues getting diesel around here now.

Housey · 11 Oct 2021 at 17:09

All seemed normal today. Popped into my normal Shell station in Lichfield and only 1 pump off, 1 with a car filling up and all 4 flavours available from the 6 other pumps.

Greebo · 11 Oct 2021 at 17:10

its the price though which now might stick. We get one to two tankers loads per week at work for our bunkered tanks and desiel when uo from £1.06 to £1.13 in one week,

visibleman · 11 Oct 2021 at 17:15

rG-tom said:
Friday, small one on the A6 only had vpower (fine as it was going in a g82 m4).

That the one at Souldrop?

Struggling with vPower further down (and around) the A6; had to use peasant supermarket unleaded the other day

rG-tom · 11 Oct 2021 at 17:49

visibleman said:
That the one at Souldrop?

Struggling with vPower further down (and around) the A6; had to use peasant supermarket unleaded the other day

yeah that's the one

Nasher · 11 Oct 2021 at 18:04

Greebo said:
its the price though which now might stick. We get one to two tankers loads per week at work for our bunkered tanks and desiel when uo from £1.06 to £1.13 in one week,

Not sure. I'm finding people are just avoiding the more expensive ones now, so they will have to drop. The ones off the main roads are like 10-12p cheaper and that's where all the locals are going.

Jez · 11 Oct 2021 at 18:09

Greebo said:
its the price though which now might stick. We get one to two tankers loads per week at work for our bunkered tanks and desiel when uo from £1.06 to £1.13 in one week,

Not now that its becoming available again? Despite them all being open again, i still went out of my way to the dodgy ASDA nearish to the office

Prices will need to slide back to where they meet demand.

MagicBoy · 11 Oct 2021 at 18:20

No problems here, been fine for 10+ days. Supermarkets are charging the standard price for E10. No queue, all grades available. All pumps open. Local Esso is still taking the michael at 143.9p though.

jpaul · 11 Oct 2021 at 18:35

Shortage of gritter drivers and bin lorry drivers, who are leaving to move up the HGV wage scale -
the petrol and supermarket shortages could become irrelevant, as we shiver in our homes.

- still no updated press release from petrol resellers association ?

AWPC · 11 Oct 2021 at 18:59

Trifid said:
The best way to get driving to be enjoyable again is to get people out of cars for unnecessary journeys and onto trains, buses and bikes. Unfortunately the idea that people shouldn't use their car how they want isn't very popular. So people sit in traffic.

I can see why small independents may think so out of lack of understanding, but would have thought the big retailers would just mix them and keep their delivery schedules current. I can also see why the big retailers would use this as a excuse to to enable them to hire drivers from overseas.

Far from it we need more petrol based cars on the roads & we need way less or ZERO bikes they are a public nuisance and need to pay their fair share to even use the roads in future as well as sensible insurance cover & following the same basic rules as other road users. Good job I am not ever likely to be a public minister in charge of roads as I would ban the lot overnight! Not joking either.

AWPC · 11 Oct 2021 at 19:04

jpaul said:
- still no updated press release from petrol resellers association ?

They are part of the problem though clearly they misjudged the E10 switchover :mad:

most of us knew shortages would arrive just not as bad as it has been in the south of the country. Now it seems to be getting worse they need 10 x more fuel flowing into the S.E no mention of army still delivering makes me think they stopped when it seemed to return to normal middle of last week but that short term thinking is the self same which caused some of the problem to begin with!

Until it returns to normal they want to keep the fuel flowing & over supply not under supply its the only way its going to improve in the southern part of the country where population density is overwhelming & demand far outstrips demand right now!

MissChief · 11 Oct 2021 at 19:12

dLockers said:
You know the Dinorwig hydro electric station in Wales makes 1kWh for every 3kWh? That means it uses 3kWh of energy to make 1kWh.

The reason why it makes sense is because hydro is instant 'on'.

I imagine the supply problems here are now caused by the fact you can't just temporarily ramp up fuel production for x weeks to get back on top of yourself. You need to let several weeks of what would normally be contingency roll through the country, and it won't always hit exactly the right spots at the right time.

Hydro works because during the night they pump water back up into the top reservoir using excess energy from Power stations that need to be kept running because they take hours to cycle up and down wo while a Hydro station is a net User of power overall that power is 'wasted' if they don't use it. As you said as well they can open the floodgates and be producing in only a couple of minutes.

Some Hydro stations use rivers as well, diverting some of the river flow through turbines.

AWPC · 11 Oct 2021 at 19:19

jpaul said:
- still no updated press release from petrol resellers association ?

London and South East shortages continue to frustrate motorists and retailers | Press Releases | PRA (ukpra.co.uk)
5th Oct was the last release as no mention of improvements you have to assume they have no good news to share..one of the tabloid are reporting a third of all petrol stations in the south are now dry!

“Attempts by the Government to deal with this fuels crisis, now into its 14th day, have thus far had only limited success in London and the South East. Much more attention on this issue affecting this region is urgently needed”.

Gordon Balmer, PRA Executive Director

MagicBoy · 11 Oct 2021 at 19:20

AWPC said:
They are part of the problem though clearly they misjudged the E10 switchover most of us knew shortages would arrive just not as bad as it has been in the south of the country. Now it seems to be getting worse they need 10 x more fuel flowing into the S.E no mention of army still delivering makes me think they stopped when it seemed to return to normal middle of last week but that short term thinking is the self same which caused some of the problem to begin with!

Until it returns to normal they want to keep the fuel flowing & over supply not under supply its the only way its going to improve in the southern part of the country where population density is overwhelming & demand far outstrips demand right now!

Enough with the conspiracy theory nonsense. We heard and a laughed at your idiotic thinking the first time.

Trifid · 11 Oct 2021 at 19:25

AWPC said:
Far from it we need more petrol based cars on the roads & we need way less or ZERO bikes they are a public nuisance and need to pay their fair share to even use the roads in future as well as sensible insurance cover & following the same basic rules as other road users. Good job I am not ever likely to be a public minister in charge of roads as I would ban the lot overnight! Not joking either.

Zero emission cars pay zero tax and cause more damage to the roads then bikes.
Obesity costs the NHS a fortune and idleness in general is terrible for health
If you look at your home insurance documents you will find public liability insurance, this will cover you for pedal bike incidents. Alternatively third party cycle cover is so cheap it is often thrown in with cycling clubs as a perk (or Strava)
I personally find driving so slow around here now that for journeys of <5 miles it is faster to cycle as a result, I often wonder why I too became a fool for going for my car instead of bike.
It will not be possible to meet the infrastructure needs of cars with the space we have in London and the home counties.
I personally would refer to live on a road with hundreds of cycles going past my home then cars, wouldn't you?

Fourstar · 11 Oct 2021 at 19:44

dLockers said:
You know the Dinorwig hydro electric station in Wales makes 1kWh for every 3kWh? That means it uses 3kWh of energy to make 1kWh.

Where did you get this number? A 33% cycle efficiency is completely wrong.

A pump turbine may not achieve the maximum efficiency possible when using independently optimised pumps and turbines but the best combined pump turbines are capable of reaching around 95% efficiency for generation and 90% for pumping, leading to a round-trip efficiency of 86%. Most plants operate in the 75%–80% range.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/storage-hydropower

This paper lists Dinorwig as having a cycle efficiency of 74-75%.

dLockers said:
The reason why it makes sense is because hydro is instant 'on'.

It is a rapid 12 seconds from 0-1.3GW output but nothing like instant. For near instant response grid level battery storage is the only game in town.

Greebo · 12 Oct 2021 at 10:03

Nasher said:
Not sure. I'm finding people are just avoiding the more expensive ones now, so they will have to drop. The ones off the main roads are like 10-12p cheaper and that's where all the locals are going.

Jez said:
Not now that its becoming available again? Despite them all being open again, i still went out of my way to the dodgy ASDA nearish to the office Prices will need to slide back to where they meet demand.

Well all depends on the prices the refineries set. Yes some garages cashed in by upping their margin but if they are lets say buying diesel in for £1.35 per litre they will have to charge more than that for it to make a profit. Before of course they were buying it at £1.27 and wacked their prices up to £1.39 to cash in.

As of yesterday the average uk fuel pump price for diesel was £141.47 and is still going up everyday. Compared with £1.12 on the 2nd June.

Wholesale prices from the refinery continues to rise every day as well. There might be a bit of play in forecourt prices but for now these prices are here to stay.

We are almost at the highest fuel prices for 8 years and I dont think its stopped going up yet.

https://www.racfoundation.org/data/wholesale-fuel-prices-v-pump-prices-data