Poll: General election voting round 5 (final one)

[McBain]

I referred to it as hindsight because... it was being analysed in retrospect. Perhaps "hindsight" is not technically the correct word, since the mechanism was understood when the decision was made, and it worked exactly as planned.

Regardless, many at the time agreed it was the correct thing to do, and it has been shown to be the correct thing to do. And it was an example of "Labours spending in 2009, and 2010 that were because 'that's what you're supposed to do' ", as you asked.

Why ask the question if you're going to just ignore the evidence in the answer?

That's 08/09 covered I guess? how about 09/10?

For the record, i'm not trying to be a **** about this, I am genuinely interested, if i've got the wrong end of the stick about Labours term, i'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

 

[do_ron_ron]

Definitely not. SNP will try and break the UK up again. It is flawed passion. I appreciate it and can see why people fall for it but it is going to do more harm than good.

As I said you see the SNP as a one agenda party. Why then is it the fastest growing party even after the NO vote? All it shows is that you take your info from the Fail.

 

[joeyjojo]

First hit: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/02/labour-spending-worked-blair-brown-stealth

Thank you!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25944653

Graph near the bottom. They seem to have overspent to me, doubling public spending in a year.

Seems to you? You mean the jump in borrowing just as the credit crunch hit and tax returns diminished?

You should read the article, it's actually very critical of the recent govt:

For example, in the calendar year 2007, the Labour government borrowed £37.7bn, of which £28.3bn was invested in big projects (the balance of £9.4bn represents the current budget deficit). Conversely, in 2013, the Conservative-led coalition borrowed £91.5bn, with just £23.7bn invested.

The Tory's are borrowing far more than the Labour government pre-recession, and getting practically no growth from it for their efforts, while at the same time cutting public services to pre-war levels? What a success.

 

[do_ron_ron]

Ed Miliband may as well quit now as he's handed either a slim majority to the Tories or another coalition as we've had.

He is not an inspiring leader and he never will be.

This is not a Presidential election though, he is one man in 22 in a cabinet.

 

[platypus]

This is not a Presidential election though, he is one man in 22 in a cabinet.

Unfortunately it's how British politics is increasingly run.

 

[delta0]

As I said you see the SNP as a one agenda party. Why then is it the fastest growing party even after the NO vote? All it shows is that you take your info from the Fail.

I don't even read that paper. As quickly as they rise they can fall. I don't appreciate nationalists. We've had many over history and the socialist ones have been particularly bad. It isn't the right direction for this country. It doesn't matter if sturgeon is laying golden eggs, putting another referendum in the 2016 manifesto is wrong.

 

[McBain]

The Tory's are borrowing far more than the Labour government pre-recession, and getting practically no growth from it for their efforts, while at the same time cutting public services to pre-war levels? What a success.

Seems like a success from where i'm sitting, absolutely I could be called selfish but i'm better off under this government than I ever have been. As I said, from a selfish point of view what's not to like.

 

[jimjamuk]

The Tory's are borrowing far more than the Labour government pre-recession, and getting practically no growth from it for their efforts, while at the same time cutting public services to pre-war levels? What a success.

Eh? So if you are unlucky to inherit a state of finances where you are spending more than you earn - those that put it in that state can beat you with the "well you borrowed more" after we left it with you stick

 

[Zethor]

It looks good when phrased like that. When phrased that Blair/Brown spent all the countries money then raided it's savings then sold off assets before finally breaking out the credit cards, things are a little different.

Lol.

I guess that depends what you're searching for?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25944653

Graph near the bottom. They seem to have overspent to me, doubling public spending in a year.

You were given an abstract in which you read the opinions of world renowned economists who made an analysis based on evidence and the scientific method. You counter it with a random BBC graph and a conclusion belonging to.. you. Why don't you admit you're over your head in this debate, arm yourself with some knowledge in the field of economic theory (which is easily available online) and come back to try again?

 

[do_ron_ron]

I thought Nick was the best in actually answering the questions asked rather than rattle off statistics.

Cameron delivered the best, even if it was evading the direct questions.

Ed just looked like a deer in the headlights, he may as well not even turned up.

This almost exactly how I saw it. Clegg was the most impressive, Cameron definitely evading answers - a bit like Nixon and Ed looked uncomfortable. It is not a reality show though, the policy matters rather than looks.

 

[ubersonic]

The Tory's are borrowing far more than the Labour government pre-recession

The country is in deficit, that means that debt can only go up because you have to borrow in order to pay the bills and to make payments on your existing debt.

 

[do_ron_ron]

They're hardly going to vote Tory are they.
Historically Scotland is very labour.

Not really, they used to be the majority party. Even in the 70's they still held ~30% of Scottish seats. Then the Tories lurched further right and their support dwindled. As Ken Clarke said "The Tories are too right wing......" and Scotland obviously agrees with him.
At the time you had the Tories(going further right), the SNP(centre right), the LibDems(at the time squabbling amongst themselves) so if you voted there was only one party left.
The SNP trick is too position themselves as centre left and take on Labour who went right under Bliar.

 

[covenantuk]

Fact is, in the period prior to the crash, which was a boom period, Labour were not only running a defecit when their beloved Keynesian economics tells us they should have been trying to run a surplus, but also setting up record levels of PFI deals for new/replacement schools and hospitals which we'll be paying for the next 50 years. All in order to make people feel good and buy their votes at the next election.

This backfired spectacularly when the crisis hit before the election.

 

[gobbo]

Are you scared that some of the things he might say makes sense and you might agree with?

I am yes.

I do find myself agreeing with *SOME* of the things he says, but could never bring myself to vote for him or UKIP as there is a LOT more I disagree with than I agree with.

I also don't like his tone or method of speaking, he just comes across as a very aggressive thug

 

[scorza]

I guess that depends what you're searching for?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25944653

Graph near the bottom. They seem to have overspent to me, doubling public spending in a year.

I searched for "how much did Labour overspend?"

Technically none of those graphs show public spending, it's true that borrowing did double as a result of the financial crash - having to bail out the banks etc. I think we're all agreed that we'd rather not have had to borrow that money but what choice did we have?

When we were talking about "overspending" I thought we were referring to planned spending i.e. a deliberate decision to spend money on something we wanted, not a somewhat panicked spend forced on the governments by events.

 

[do_ron_ron]

Except that there's a reasonable possibility they could extract a better deal for Scotland from the Tories than they could from Labour. I don't mean a formal coalition, obviously, but in terms of giving Scotland more autonomy in exchange for not standing in the way of 'English votes for English laws', etc. It was discussed a little earlier in the thread, rather than rehashing it all now, if you want to go back and look.

That's as opposed to merely being able to support Labour policies when ones the SNP like come up. They wouldn't even have the power the formal opposition have to shape the legislative timetable.

On one hand you have not shooting down the Tories and that being unpopular with some Scots (but getting something big in return, so as it make it saleable... and bear in mind the SNP and Tories have worked together before, in Scotland). Then on the other hand you have helping prop up Ed Miliband, potentially without any meaningful input in shaping the direction of policy and not getting any 'big wins' out of it for Scotland, which would result in cries of, 'we voted SNP but got Ed Miliband... we didn't even get a big say '.

You're too quick to absolutely rule out all sorts.

The SNP was once a centre right party and did work with the Tories but have moved to a centre left party and can never vote with the Tories. It would be electoral suicide especially with the next Scottish Govt election next year.
All parties have already pledged more autonomy. The Tories are very unlikely to go even further.

 

[the_r_sole]

I don't even read that paper. As quickly as they rise they can fall. I don't appreciate nationalists. We've had many over history and the socialist ones have been particularly bad. It isn't the right direction for this country. It doesn't matter if sturgeon is laying golden eggs, putting another referendum in the 2016 manifesto is wrong.

you should really watch some of the interviews from yesterday and hear what she is actually talking about rather than repeating the incorrect assumptions made in the english press

 

[McBain]

Lol.



You were given an abstract in which you read the opinions of world renowned economists who made an analysis based on evidence and the scientific method. You counter it with a random BBC graph and a conclusion belonging to.. you. Why don't you admit you're over your head in this debate, arm yourself with some knowledge in the field of economic theory (which is easily available online) and come back to try again?

I'll be completely honest I neither have the time or the desire to research economic theory.

Fact is whether labour over spent or not, has no effect on who I'll vote for.

 

[Zethor]

Fact is, in the period prior to the crash, which was a boom period, Labour were not only running a defecit when their beloved Keynesian economics tells us they should have been trying to run a surplus, but also setting up record levels of PFI deals for new/replacement schools and hospitals which we'll be paying for the next 50 years. All in order to make people feel good and buy their votes at the next election.

This backfired spectacularly when the crisis hit before the election.

This is true, Labour should have been tightening the belt during the boom and they didn't. However, after the crash, their policies were right on the spot and it is the Tories that failed with their austerity. Ironically, had they continued the investments and delayed cuts, the post crash growth would have all but guaranteed another victory.

 

[subbytna]

This is the fifth and final chance to indicate your voting intentions and see if there have been any changes over time. The poll will close shortly before midnight on the 7th when the actual polling will start from but this thread will be left often for any discussions after polling day.

It covers all parties who currently have at least one seat in the House of Commons but if you're going to vote for another party that isn't listed then you can indicate that with the "other" option and explain (or not). It's anonymous so unless you want to say who you're voting for there's no need to post it.

The options in alphabetical order are:
Alliance Party of Northern Ireland
Conservative
Democratic Unionist Party
Green Party
Labour
Liberal Democrat
Not voting/will spoil ballot
Other party (not named)
Plaid Cymru
Respect Party
Scottish National Party
Social Democratic and Labour Party
Sinn Fein
UKIP

The poll runs for 7 days from today and after that point there'll be an election so we'll see how the real thing pans out.

Round 1 of the polling.
Round 2 of the polling.
Round 3 of the polling.
Round 4 of the polling.

seeing as sinn fein don't take their seats up they should be blocked from the poll imo