Going Vegetarian.

[Things change I've changed]

An excelent post.

Plants don't have a brain, there are a number of animals that don't have brains either. Starfish, sea anenomes, many simple moluscs and bi-valves, jelly-fish, nematodes. They have a simple nervous sytem that responds to simulus in the same way plants do. Do vegies eat muscles or oysters? What about the yeast in beer and bread or the bacteria in yogurt? And eggs- that is killing an animal prematurely?

Is this all you got to hang onto, plants may have feelings too lol.

 

[D.P.]

Is this all you got to hang onto, plants may have feelings too lol.

o it isn't at all and if you read my arguments then you would understand but as you are too quick to judge meat eaters you didn't bother to read.

 

[D.P.]

Well if they don't have a brain they can't have a conciousness. They are alive, but not in the same sense as humans, sorry, but if you believe they are then I give up.

By that logic, we aren't meant to eat anything! Bread contains yeast, plants have feelings, bacteria in and around all our food is living too, we better not eat that.

The eggs we eat from chickens are not fertilised, so we haven't killed it prematurely.

I will ask again, do cows, lambs, pigs and chikens have a Concious? And what does it mean to be concious if you are a chicken?

 

[iCraig]

I will ask again, do cows, lambs, pigs and chikens have a Concious? And what does it mean to be concious if you are a chicken?

Lower forms of life like that are not self-aware nor sentient, their conciousness will be fairly basic I would imagine. Only there to allow them to process decisions, objectiveness and mobility. They have memory, obedience and have the ability to bond. However, their evolved intelligence limits this to what they need to have in order to survive. Natural selection allows a pig to survive as it is without needing to be any smarter.

Now, you may say it's wrong for these kind of animals to be killed, because despite their limited intelligence they are certainly very much alive and have feelings to some degree? If it was wrong, why do these animals get killed and eaten by other prey apart from humans? Why do antelope get killed in pain and sometimes eaten from the belly up whilst they're still alive? By wolves, lions, hyenas?

 

[Things change I've changed]

o it isn't at all and if you read my arguments then you would understand but as you are too quick to judge meat eaters you didn't bother to read.

<goes through thread and makes a note of D.P's posts>

I will ask again, do cows, lambs, pigs and chikens have a Concious? And what does it mean to be concious if you are a chicken?

don't we need a conciousness to feel pain and suffering ?

Now, you may say it's wrong for these kind of animals to be killed, because despite their limited intelligence they are certainly very much alive and have feelings to some degree? If it was wrong, why do these animals get killed and eaten by other prey apart from humans? Why do antelope get killed in pain and sometimes eaten from the belly up whilst they're still alive? By wolves, lions, hyenas?

Is that because it's in thier instincts to do that, where by we as humans have the choice to do not what our instints tell us to do, but what we feel is right instead, I really believe that evolving past our primative instints is an important and integral part of humanity's evolutionary process.

 

[D.P.]

"don't we need a conciousness to feel pain and suffering ?"

The simple answer is no.
Now suffering is a siubjective quality prescribed by humans to what we perceive to me the state of living things. It normally requires some kind of higher level thought and so that arguemtn is somewhat a tautology. E.g. suffering is a living thing expericing pain and knowing it is experiencing pain and what is can do about it.

Pain in itslef is a very low reactive sense. It is one of the most basic senses their are, a requiurement to help survive. The simplest organisms can feel pain, but what is means to them is not much.

Even with much higher level organisms pain in not processed at higher levels. Now fields of cows often have electric fences. Cows feel the pain and by association learn to avoid it. They don't wonder why it is painful or worry about it it at higher levels, they simply react. Almost all aniamls are like this. When your pet dog is hurt it usually sits in its bed ignoring it.

The pain response is a direct connection from stimuls nerves to the amydala in the brain. E.g. When you burn yourself you immediately flinch- there is no concsious thought.

Interestingly, removing the amydala froma human will remove all feelings of love and fear.
Tim

 

[iCraig]

don't we need a conciousness to feel pain and suffering ?

Some sort of conciousness yes. Pain is processed by the nerves and a nervous system (including a brain) Without it, what processes the pain sensation? Also, why would a plant need to feel pain? It would be detrimental to it's design.

Is that because it's in thier instincts to do that, where by we as humans have the choice to do not what our instints tell us to do, but what we feel is right instead, I really believe that evolving past our primative instints is an important and integral part of humanity's evolutionary process.

Evolution doesn't occur because some people choose to do different. If some people decide to eat nothing but meat, all day everyday, that wouldn't make the human race evolve into pure carnivores. Evolution doesn't work like that, it takes millions of years of successful and unsuccessful genetic material being passed down per generation, natural selection making the human race adapt for it's survival, if necessary.

Some people are gay, they're born gay and die gay. Will the human race evolve into a race of homosexuals? No, never.

I'm not saying vegetarianism is wrong, no way, as long as the vegetarian's diet is healthy and gives the body what it needs, it's all good. Our social development has allowed us to break away from certain instincts, people now have different tastes to others—but those who chose to eat meat are still doing so in a perfectly natural fashion, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with humans eating meat. Moral issues of animal torture aside, as we all know that's wrong, providing the animals and kept and killed humanely the argument that eating meat is wrong no matter what, really begins to become weak.

 

[Goatboy]

the only real reason anyone would want to eat meet is becuase of the taste, NOTHING ELSE,

That's simply not true, it's loaded with nutrients. The only abundant non-animal source of omega 3 is flax seed which you can't digest when eaten as is.

Other nutrients like CLA, vit B12, Vit E, iron and abundant in meat and very hard to get from non animal sources.

I also eat meat because I like to cook, it is an ingredient with hundreds of variations.

 

[iCraig]

That's simply not true, it's loaded with nutrients. The only abundant non-animal source of omega 3 is flax seed which you can't digest when eaten as is.

Other nutrients like CLA, vit B12, Vit E, iron and abundant in meat and very hard to get from non animal sources.

I also eat meat because I like to cook, it is an ingredient with hundreds of variations.

Exactly.

 

[semi-pro waster]

So veggies pick and choose what they think is not meat?
Surely, eggs are in the same category as meat.

In what sense? Eggs could only really be meat if they are fertilised and have an embyro inside (or whatever you call it for an egg), until that point they a ball of goo essentially. They are a natural byproduct and the animal does not have to be hurt in the production of eggs.

 

[D.P.]

In what sense? Eggs could only really be meat if they are fertilised and have an embyro inside (or whatever you call it for an egg), until that point they a ball of goo essentially. They are a natural byproduct and the animal does not have to be hurt in the production of eggs.

An animal doesn't have to be hurt to produce meat either.

 

[iCraig]

An animal doesn't have to be hurt to produce meat either.

Yup, humane killings are quick and painless. Usually a bolt through the brain.

I think they're arguing against them simply dying in the first place. Yet them being killed in nature is perfectly acceptable.

 

[D.P.]

Yup, humane killings are quick and painless. Usually a bolt through the brain.

I think they're arguing against them simply dying in the first place. Yet them being killed in nature is perfectly acceptable.

They would die of old age in any case, and a humane killing is a much more desireable form of detah than the slow relentless pain of a natural death in the wild.

 

[jezsoup]

In what sense? Eggs could only really be meat if they are fertilised and have an embyro inside (or whatever you call it for an egg), until that point they a ball of goo essentially. They are a natural byproduct and the animal does not have to be hurt in the production of eggs.

No it isnt hurt as such but it is killed prematurely. The egg contains a baby animal, so eating eggs is killing animals.

 

[semi-pro waster]

An animal doesn't have to be hurt to produce meat either.

Ok, I should have known that pedantry would come out to play here.

You don't have to kill a chicken (or duck or whatever) to get an egg, in fact I'd suggest you didn't if you want it to produce more. However you can't say the same for a steak or any other cut of meat, the animal should be dead before you begin which you could classify as the ultimate hurt, you just don't come back from that. Although I'll agree that humane killings minimise or eliminate the pain that an animal will feel, it might not do too much for the distress but certain things are probably unavoidable in the food production process.

 

[iCraig]

The egg contains a baby animal, so eating eggs is killing animals.

Are you talking about fertilised eggs or non fertilised eggs?

The chicken eggs that we buy from the supermarkets are not fertilised, they do not contain a baby animal.

 

[semi-pro waster]

No it isnt hurt as such but it is killed prematurely. The egg contains a baby animal, so eating eggs is killing animals.

Until it is fertilised it is simple protein, if it is never fertilised it is a ball of goo (for want of a technical term), nothing more and nothing less.

 

[jezsoup]

Are you talking about fertilised eggs or non fertilised eggs?

The chicken eggs that we buy from the supermarkets are not fertilised, they do not contain a baby animal.

my bad

 

[Chronos-X]

THats right, an egg is to all intents and purposes.... a hen's period.

 

[iCraig]

an egg is to all intents and purposes.... a hen's period.

Not really, just the ovum.