Halal, is it meat you're looking for?

[sports_brah]

Seems to me a good solution is for people to actively take note of the origins of their meat. A boycott of halal products might see a reversal.

I will ensure personally that I do not buy halal produce, and I will urge others to do the same.

 

[Castiel]

he didn't, that is taking the passage too simply and ignoring the context

He did.

The washing of hands before eating was not a Law from Moses. It was a tradition from the Pharisees.

That was but one of the rules interpreted from the scriptures by the Pharisees, but it still doesn't overrule the actual fulfilment of Mosaic Law by Christ, his coming fulfilled the Laws set out in the Old Testament and bought a New Covenant based on the words of Christ as set out in the New Testament...Mark clearly provides the testament that all food is clean and this is supported in Acts and Colossians.

Your very own quote from Matthew 5:17 illustrates this...Christ came not to tell the Jews that their Laws were wrong or that they should be abolished, but simply that Christ has come to fulfil that Covenant given to Abraham and the Mosaic Law and bring the New Covenant, as Galatians 3:17 illustrates the fulfilment of Mosaic Law was promised by God, the New Covenant brought by Christ is the fulfilment of that Promise, not the abolishment of all that come before, but the fulfilment of the purpose of the Mosaic Law...therefore Christians should look to the New Testament rather than the Old Testament for such matters.

This is the view of the majority of Christians, you may not agree with it, but that is the way it is nonetheless...

 

[spudbynight]

No disrespect Nickg, but you don't know what you are talking about...you are repeating fringe interpretations as if they are the beliefs of mainstream Christianity. The fact is that if you just went by the Pauline Gospel <snip>

Pauline Gospel? What is this thing of which you speak?

 

[The Running Man]

He did.



That was but one of the rules interpreted from the scriptures by the Pharisees, but it still doesn't overrule the actual fulfilment of Mosaic Law by Christ, his coming fulfilled the Laws set out in the Old Testament and bought a New Covenant based on the words of Christ as set out in the New Testament...Mark clearly provides the testament that all food is clean and this is supported in Acts and Colossians.

Thats not what jesus said. In acts paul declares all food good but is arrested at the behest of the apostles for ignoring the 4 main tenets they asked him to declare. Hence he was shunned by Jerusalem and the East. Paul admitted that he had been shunned in some of his last words. Paul lies more than once in Acts and is called out in revelations 2:2.

Revelations 2:2

New International Version
I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

if you want to understand the arguments against paul this is a reasonable resource


http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

Of the 22 times in the Bible where Paul is referred to as an "apostle", only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself! These two instances came from the same person. Not from Yahshua, or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke

another comparo source here

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/85-eden-on-false-apostle.html

 

[spudbynight]

I will ensure personally that I do not buy halal produce, and I will urge others to do the same.

I have zero issues with eating Halal meat (or Kosher for that matter) - however I can see that others might do. I think meat should be labelled as Halal for those who have an issue.

 

[The Running Man]

I like paul

(Paul advocates that husbands should start living the single life again)

"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" I Cor 7:29

(Paul expects to make money off the gospel that Christ commanded to be preached freely)

"In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14

"If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?" I Cor 9:11

as you can see pauls like a religious con man trying to make money.

(Paul urges the Corinthians to imitate him, rather than Christ)

"Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus, I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me." I Cor 4:15/16

Maybe the Profit deserves his own thread in SC.

 

[Castiel]

Pauline Gospel? What is this thing of which you speak?

You know full well it is a common collective epithet for the Epistles. However I have altered it for accuracy

Thats not what jesus said.

It is what Jesus said according to Mark. Mark 7.19 (orig. katharidzon panta ta bromata, καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα) states "cleansing of all the food"...Mark attests these as the words of Jesus.

And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him…. Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man."

Those were the words spoke by Jesus as laid testament by Mark in his Gospel.

In acts paul declares all food good but is arrested at the behest of the apostles for ignoring the 4 main tenets they asked him to declare.

What is your source for stating that Paul was arrested on the behest of the Apostles?..which Apostles?

Paul was arrested in Jerusalem for preaching The Gospels to Jews and causing unrest according to the Romans.

if you want to understand the arguments against paul this is a reasonable resource

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

I'm sorry Nickg, but the Hebrew Roots Movement, also known as Messianic Christians you are now generally quoting from is a modern fringe movement, not indicative of actual mainstream Christian belief. I understand the arguments laid out in such articles and and also know that they believe that Christianity is predominantly Jewish and that the Old Testament take precedence over the New Testament..this is not held by the vast majority of Christians I'm afraid and it used by some Ultra Conservative Evangelists to flesh out their nonsense. I mean the author of that source you have supplied actually believes that Barak Obama is the Antichrist and the Bible says so...that you put so much confidence in his interpretation of the scripture illustrates that we are really poles apart in our understanding of the Scripture. I don't think much will be served by continuing this with you if you are convinced by such people. Nothing I will say will change your mind.

another comparo source here

http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/85-eden-on-false-apostle.html

Again, I would not put too much stock in the opinions of a fundamentalist evangelist lay preacher.

 

[The Running Man]

21:16-25 - Some of the disciples from Caesarea accompanied us and they brought us to the house of Mnason, a native of Cyprus and one of the earliest disciples, with whom we were going to stay. On our arrival at Jerusalem the brothers gave us a very warm welcome. On the following day Paul went with us to visit James, and all the elders were present. When he had greeted them he gave them a detailed account of all that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry, and they, on hearing this account, glorified God. Then they said to him, "You know, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews who have become believers, and that every one of these is a staunch upholder of the Law. They have been told about you - that you teach all Jews who live among the Gentiles to disregard the Law of Moses, and tell them not to circumcise their children nor observe the old customs. What will happen now, for they are simply bound to hear that you have arrived? Now why not follow this suggestion of ours? We have four men here under a vow. Suppose you join them and be purified with them, pay their expenses so that they may have their hair cut short, and then everyone will know there is no truth in the stories about you, but that you yourself observe the Law. As for those Gentiles who have believed, we have sent them a letter with our decision that they should abstain from what has been offered to idols, from blood and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality"

21:26-30 - So Paul joined the four men and on the following day, after being purified with them, went into the Temple to give notice of the time when the period of purification would be finished and an offering would be made on behalf of each one of them. The seven days were almost over when the Jews from Asia caught sight of Paul in the Temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, shouting, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everybody everywhere to despise our people, our Law and this place. Why, he has even brought Greeks into the Temple and he has defiled this holy place!" For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with Paul in the city and they had concluded that Paul had brought him into the Temple. The whole city was stirred by this speech and a mob collected who seized Paul and dragged him outside the Temple, and the doors were slammed behind him.

so as you can see he was arrested because paul had ignored the letters of the apostles and had teacheth what was untrue.

Paul had already said that he was the greatest of tbe apostles, he was the most boastful and the only one who disagreed with jesus on the law, as Castiel seems to. Jesus words were clear, his intentions were clear. Only a poor interpretation of mark could you believe that jesus had suddenly repealed all the religious laws.

 

[Castiel]

so as you can see he was arrested because paul had ignored the letters of the apostles and had teacheth what was untrue.

Paul had already said that he was the greatest of tbe apostles, he was the most boastful and the only one who disagreed with jesus on the law, as Castiel seems to. Jesus words were clear, his intentions were clear. Only a poor interpretation of mark could you believe that jesus had suddenly repealed all the religious laws.

You quote Acts (a Pauline Epistle) to show that the Apostles had Paul arrested, yet it states quite clearly that Paul was arrested by The Romans for allegedly bringing a Gentile into the Temple and creating a riot on the streets when the mob tried to kill him after he was accused of trying to preach his testimony to Jews by a group of Asian Jews. You might want to read all of Acts before accepting what those people are telling you , particularly Paul's defence to the Crowd and Paul The Roman in Acts 22 and the first few chapters of Acts 23.

The only poor interpretation of Mark is coming from the sources you are quoting from, the same sources that state Jesus said Barak Obama is the anti-Christ and all kinds of other fundie nonsense.

And no-one, least of all Paul said that Jesus has repealed the Mosaic Law...Jesus said he had fulfilled them (the food laws which set the Jews apart from everyone else for example ended because the coming of Christ had fulfilled that laws purpose). The point being that the path to righteousness could no longer be found in keeping the Law (Remember they talk about being born under the law, not beholden to the law) but only found in Jesus. The whole reason he was sacrificed was in fulfilment of this.

Anyway, this is what the vast majority of Christians believe, whether you believe it or believe a group of fundamentalist fringe preachers is up to you.

 

[The Running Man]

From Acts:

"…For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."************** Acts 15:28,29 ***

From the word of Paul :

"Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles… But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter… and when James, Cephas, and John who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I was also eager to do." * Galatians 2:1,2,6-7,9-10**

Paul was arrested at the behest of the Jews by the overlord Romans because he was lieing and passing on the wrong laws to gentiles and Jews. Had paul preached the message he was asked to the Jews would not have asked the Romans to arrest him (on their behalf).

Paul was obviously conceited.

 

[Castiel]

From Acts:

From the word of Paul :

Paul was arrested at the behest of the Jews by the overlord Romans because he was lieing and passing on the wrong laws to gentiles and Jews. Had paul preached the message he was asked to the Jews would not have asked the Romans to arrest him (on their behalf).

Paul was obviously conceited.

Paul preached the words he was asked to...of course the Jewish leaders (Pharisees and Sadducees) were not happy about it, why would they be? He wasn't preaching the Torah according to Second Temple Judaism, he was preaching something new.

Anyway your mind is pretty much made up and you can believe the opinions of the preachers in those sources if you want..the point is not whether you accept them or not, whether you think Paul is a false apostle or not, however you want to interpret the Scripture...the fact remains that the vast majority of Christians do not believe as you do and that is all that really matters..and thank God they don't because if 3bn+ Christians all believed Barak Obama was the Anti-Christ as stated by Jesus then we would all be in a world of hurt.

Anyway this is way off the topic of Halal. So I'm off to do something more constructive.

 

[The Running Man]

He did not acts:

The whole assembly kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul as they told of all the signs and wonders that God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, "My brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first looked favorably on the Gentiles, to take from among them a people for his name. 15This agrees with the words of the prophets, as it is written, 16'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; from its ruins I will rebuild it, and I will set it up, 17so that all other peoples may seek the Lord-- even all the Gentiles over whom my name has been called. Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things 18known from long ago.' 19Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, 20but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood. (NRSV

http://www.christianbiblereference.org/cgi-bin/quote.pl?Acts_15_1_20

 

[Castiel]

Acts does not denounce Paul, quite the opposite...three times it describes Paul's conversion and his meeting with Christ...it also describes James' acceptance of Paul's theology and this led to the Apostolic Decree of The Council of Jerusalem which basically meant that most Mosaic Law did not apply to Gentile Converts, that wasn't Paul who decreed it, (he didn't write Acts either)...but James the Just, leader of the Jerusalem Church who decreed it, basically it says that Christians (Not Jews) are only beholden to Noahide Law (The 7 Laws of Noah) and not Mosaic Law... hence the very scripture you are quoting totally undermining your argument once again.

Acts 9, 22 and 26 all describe the Damascene Conversion, so it is clear that the author of Acts accepts this as happening. In other words Paul was instructed by Jesus on the Road to Damascus.

Now stop just quoting Acts and bits of scripture at me, I know you don't agree with me and would rather accept the reasoning of a few cultists over that of pretty much every other reputable scholar and so it's not really productive anymore, especially as I don't think you even know what you are quoting half the time or what it means.

 

[The Running Man]

You've taken a round about way to agree with me?

The decree

Decree of the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) Part 2: The Decree's Purpose
The Four Requirements
The decree told gentile Christians to abstain from four things.15 Minor variations occur in order and number (15:20, 29; 21:25); these variations suggest that order and number are not significant. The four prohibitions:

1) Pollutions of idols (15:20) or things sacrificed to idols (15:29; 21:25). Wilson notes that "pollutions" could have either a religious sense or a reference to morality.16 All four prohibitions may be described as pollutions, as ritual uncleanness.17

2) Blood. This is a prohibition of eating or drinking blood.

3) Strangled things. Perhaps meat from strangled animals was forbidden because blood remained in the meat, but if that is the only reason, it would not seem necessary to mention strangled things in addition to blood. Wilson points out uncertainties in the meaning of strangled things. The verb means "strangle," but the noun may refer to a method of cooking as well as of killing.18 Either way, it is an unusual dietary restriction. Strangled meat played a role in some pagan cults, and may have been mentioned because of that.19

4) Sexual immorality (porneia)

so Christians can't eat halal as it was sacrificed to a false idol (allah). Paul ignored the decree hence he drew ire of the Jews and was arrested as we have just discussed.

 

[drakie]

Even subway gave in to this 'halal' meat now...

 

[arknor]

Even subway gave in to this 'halal' meat now...

they were one of the first

 

[Castiel]

You've taken a round about way to agree me?

No, quite the opposite..I have disagreed with your anti-Paul stance, the sources you have assumed this position from and the interpretations you have derived from it..all of which are fringe interpretations and nothing more.

Allah is simply the Arabic for God, God is not a false Idol to Christians, unless they happen to be the few cultists or Jehovah Witnesses (who also happen to say that eating Halal is permissible btw)..as pointed out He is the God of Abraham and this is broadly accepted by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike.

Also as pointed out once already, Paul was not arrested for disagreeing with James or for not following the Apostolic Decree..but for his conversion of Jews and accusations of desecration of their Temple.

Lastly, the Apostolic Decree was made in relation to False Gods and Idols, namely those of the Greeks, Egyptians and Romans of the Time, neither James or Paul or the Council of Jerusalem ever made the decree that the God of Christ was not the God of Abraham, nor does any subsequent Council for that matter make the distinction between The God of Abraham and Allah...they are one and the same...to say that Allah is therefore a false idol is not supported in scripture or by the Councils, either Apostolic or Nicene. It is merely an opinion of some preachers.

The Catholic view:

In summary, it is clear that there is nothing in the Scriptures against Christians eating halal meat. The question of meat “sacrificed to idols” does not apply, even though not even that would present a problem, since halal meat is offered to Allah, the one God worshipped by Muslims, Jews and Christians.

 

[zyzzyzus]

so Christians can't eat halal as it was sacrificed to a false idol (allah).

You do know Allah and God/Jehovah (or whatever you call him) are all the same god? The difference is Muslims believe Mohammed was a prophet and Jesus was a prophet rather than the actual son of god.

As for halal (and kosher) as long as the animal is stunned I am ok with it. But that isn't always the case. But I am vegetarian anyway so don't have to worry about it as much.

Edit:
I'm an atheist anyway so believe they are all fairy tales.

 

[BunnyKillBot]

You do know Allah and God/Jehovah (or whatever you call him) are all the same god? The difference is Muslims believe Mohammed was a prophet and Jesus was a prophet rather than the actual son of god.

As for halal (and kosher) as long as the animal is stunned I am ok with it. But that isn't always the case. But I am vegetarian anyway so don't have to worry about it as much.

Edit:
I'm an atheist anyway so believe they are all fairy tales.

That they are both abrahamic rooted religions is irrelevant. Idolisation is not the same as deification. The same as where you may idolise a particular football team, you are sympathetic towards your own team and in conflict with the opposition, even though you are both football teams. Halal meat is sympathetic to the 'false' claim of Islam, from a christian perspective.

 

[Efour]

Wow I'm considering getting ritually slaughtered myself after reading through all that bible crap.
Its on par with a guy I know that's into comic books.