Soldato
All I care about is still being able to eat pig, they can halal all they want but dont deny me my bacon goodness.
Halal, is it meat you're looking for?
- Thread starter Zbornak
- Start date
Caporegime
What's funny is that while they hand out bibles they probably have no idea about how Christianity was changed by Paul altering jesus teachings and creating in effect his own religion based upon the rules he set of his own accord and was castigated by tje actual apostles for doing so.
Anti-Muslim != racist
While I don't doubt there are racists involved in anti muslim groups its not as simple as targeting say Asian people (the biggest group of muslims in the UK) - Sikhs, Hindus etc.. aren't targeted like this... other non-Asian muslims are targeted - Somalis etc...
Islam isn't a race and 'Islamophobia' is a silly concept... there is nothing wrong with attacking ideas, ideologies etc... its perfectly valid to openly hate Islam, want to destroy Islam etc.. just as it is to be anti Communist, anti Capitalist to be opposed to the roman catholic church etc... What isn't ok is to want to attack muslims.
Man of Honour
Validity in a position does not indicate that it is acceptable.
It is valid to be racist, but is an unacceptable position.
It is valid to be racist, but is an unacceptable position.
I'd say racism an often the result of irrational ideas/views/beliefs and therefore frequently an invalid view to have in that case...
But if it can be valid albeit unacceptable then I'll say my pov is that it is unacceptable.
Attacking an idea, ideology however is acceptable - thats my point.
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Man of Honour
I think disagreeing with it is fine, I think attacking it is strange.
I suppose it does depend on how you define those things though.
I suppose it does depend on how you define those things though.
Disagreeing is self explanatory I guess... attacking an idea is to speak out, criticise, mock etc... Dawkins for example frequently attacks religion.
The cartoons, the badly made mohammed film etc.. are attacks on Islam - they provoked widespread protest and violence from muslims.
its an idea/ideology just like any others it just happens to involve a supernatural entity. Is the idea that people want to attack capitalism or communism strange or that people hate the Tory party and/or its leaders - Thatcher etc...
Soldato
Watch out you lot as you may get the "The wrath of Islam" which sounds like a **** pub to me.
Where we going tonight?
The wrath of Islam.
Oh for **** *** there's no fruit machines no beer and no pork scratchings!
Yeh but the women get stoned
Where we going tonight?
The wrath of Islam.
Oh for **** *** there's no fruit machines no beer and no pork scratchings!
Yeh but the women get stoned
Kosher and Halal slaughter (dhabinah) have similarities but are not the same.
A Jewish Shochet (slaughterer) is extensively trained on the laws of slaughter and must hold a license, be religious and kill the animal with kindness and compassion whilst saying the prayer. Halal slaughter just has to be performed by any Muslim (or I suppose a Jew or Christian in theory) who says the prayer (Bismillah) at the time of the cut...no training necessary although there are obviously some professional Muslim slaughterers.
There are five forbidden techniques in Kosher slaughter:
1. There must be no delay or pause in the cut i.e. one uninterrupted stroke (shehiyah);
2. There must be no pressing or hacking (derasah) i.e. no sawing motion;
3. The blade must not be dug or buried in the animal (haladah) i.e. no stabbing;
4. There must be no slipping during the cut (hagramah);
5. Finally, there must be no tearing (iqqur) of the esophagus nor the trachea (this could be caused for example by a nick in the blade or if it not sharpened before each and every animal.
Dhabinah differs from Kosher on a few of these points. The requirement is for a swift deep incision with a sharp blade on the throat cutting both the carotid and jugular but not the spine (the same as Kosher Shechita). Whilst the blade is required to be sharp, I do not believe that Dhabinah calls for the blade to be checked or sharpened prior to each and every animal. Under Shechita, all blades are assumed imperfect and are required to be checked for sharpness and both nicks or imperfections prior to the cut and after the cut. Thus Dhabinah fails on the kosher tests of pressing or hacking (derasah) and tearing (iqqur) as these could potentially happen if the knife is sharp but not sharp enough or has any nicks.
The knife used in Dhabinah is also shorter than that used in Kosher Shechita. The Kosher blade (called the Chalef) has to be twice the width of the animals neck to specifically prevent digging/hacking into the neck or tearing/ripping of the animals flesh both of which would cause undue suffering. The Chalef must not have a point to prevent piercing or stabbing and cannot be serrated to prevent tearing and sawing again to minimise any trauma for the animal.
I am not aware of the exact laws for the blade used in Dhabinah but I understand they do not exceed 24.5cm which would fail on the hacking or sawing (derasah) and burying or stabbing part (haladah) owing to an inadequate length for cattle. It would however be suitable for sheep and goats.
In an ideal world, the kosher version is certainly stricter when it comes to compassion and minimising the suffering. Are all shochets perfect? I am sure not HOWEVER, if the kosher slaughter is performed as intended the animal should invariably not even realise it's throat was cut before unconsciousness. For halal chicken and goat/sheep, this is also probably the case but very unlikely in the case of cattle.
I think that answers one question on the differences between Kosher Shechita and Halal Dhabinah. The second question of labelling is quite clear cut. All Kosher and Halal sourced products should be clearly labelled. Over half of all kosher shechted meat makes it's way into the non Kosher market and clearly a lot of Halal meat too. Consumers have the right to know about this and make an informed choice if it means anything to them.
The third question that humane slaughter is not possible without stunning etc is a little more complex but I think ultimately clear cut and I will post my thoughts and research on the subject hopefully later today.
NB
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Caporegime
The issue is that well over 25% of the UK's meat is halal to serve a population of only 5% ..
Caporegime
LET HIM GO !
Man of Honour
Is it not currently serving 100% of the meat eating population? Where is it failing?
Caporegime
I think you're being a bit facetious there. He obviously means only five percent of the population require halal meat but five times that amount is produced.
Soldato
Bismillah NO! We Will not let you go!
Caporegime
Well obviously of the 5% of the population who demand to eat it. That was pretty obvious Gilly even for you given the context and details in this and other halal threads.
Gilly did make quite a valid point.
Im sure the percentage of people who choose to avoid halal meat would fall under 5% and 75% of meat produced would serve them.
Quite frankly the availability of one or the other is irrelevant when majority of consumers are unconcerned.
Associate
Imagine if all meat were Kosher, would Muslims have issue with it, if it were unlabelled? During the horse meat scandal didn't some Muslims complain that they were eating non Halal meat and it was against their religious belief?
If that is all the case, then why should Christians, Jews have to put up with meat that has been intended for a Muslim audience. It wouldn't be accepted the other way. We'd have people protesting and setting stuff on fire.
If that is all the case, then why should Christians, Jews have to put up with meat that has been intended for a Muslim audience. It wouldn't be accepted the other way. We'd have people protesting and setting stuff on fire.
What about the tens of millions of us who don't mind, are you proposing to ban businesses from selling halal if it's over the 5% quota when they're happy to sell halal because it fits their business model, lots of control freaks about these days.
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Man of Honour
Let me go!
Caporegime
You can dismount your high horse and learn to understand English. I didn't propose anything, merely clarified the obvious meaning behind the post.
That's twice in the last 24 hours you've jumped on a comment of mine and got the meaning behind it completely wrong.