Has Jose Mourinho lost it?

fez

fez

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There is a massive difference between United a few years ago and City a few years ago. We have spent less and our squad was a mess compared to theirs at the time. Our squad needed an almost complete overhaul and theirs has been consistently strong and yet they have still spent more in that period. That doesn't however explain why we are still sitting here with half a top squad and a team that doesn't play as well as the sum of its parts. We have spent a lot of money and have amassed a collection of decent but not good enough players.

Mkhitaryan has never lived up to the hype. Fantastic player on his day but that happens very infrequently.
Mata - Far too slow and lightweight and pretty much only ever does well when we are dominating an opposition and they are tired. Rarely changes a game when we are under the kosh.
Fellaini - Generally useless and is a real worry when he is your first choice midfielder at any point. Useful as something different but so limited.
Lukaku - will score a lot of goals if we play to his strengths and give him the chances. Not the sort of player to make them for himself of make something out of nothing.
Herrera - gives everything for the club but is far too negative and not good enough to be first choice. He can be solid but also very anonymous much of the time.

Thats far too many players that aren't worth a first team spot on either general ability or current form. Lukaku just needs better service but the rest of them should be moved on and replaced with quality.

City are flourishing this year because they have the likes of Silva and De Bruyne linking their attacks. We are completely reliant on Pogba who is usually operating from far too deep.
 
Don
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There is a massive difference between United a few years ago and City a few years ago.....

As I've said before, I don't buy this at all. Let's break down both squads from 18 months ago:

De Gea/Hart - No contest.
Defence - Kompany was a crock, Demichelis, Otamendi and Mangala all looked like car crash players and City had 3 full backs that were well past their best. Jones was a crock but not to Kompany levels and Rojo, Smalling, Blind certainly weren't as bad as City's CB's. I'd have certainly taken Shaw, Darmian & Valencia over City's fullbacks too.
Midfield - Fernandinho, Toure, Fernando & Delph. The latter 3 were all considered useless or past it. Herrera, Carrick, Schwiensteiger, Schneiderlin, Fellaini. Carrick & Schwiensteiger were certainly past it and most would say Fellaini was useless however it's fair to say Mourinho wouldn't share that view. 18 months ago I offer you Herrera or Fernandinho, not 1 Utd fan takes Fernandinho and Schneiderlin certainly isn't losing out to Delph in an argument.
Attacking Mids/Wingers: Not 1 Utd fan is taking Sterling over Rashford, not 1 Utd fan is taking Silva over Mata (we even had a thread on this a few years ago when Silva was at his peak), Navas was certainly no better than Depay. Maybe not the best direct comparison (although both were playing as wide attackers 18 months ago) but if you were offered Martial or KDB 18 months ago, are you honestly saying many Utd fans are taking KDB?
Strikers - Aguero is the only 1 worth mentioning at both clubs.

Both sides finished on level points the season before Pep/Mourinho arrived and looking at the state of their squads it's easy to see why. City had more going forward, Utd better at the back but overall there wasn't much in it - both sides were made up of a mix of promising players, a few players at their peak and a load of players that used to be very good but were now past their best.

City haven't spent a great deal more than Utd in the past 18 months, certainly not enough to justify the difference in progress both sides have made and again lets be fair, when I said in the summer that City were the only side to have got their first choice targets (regardless of what I thought of them), you objected to that and said they'd signed average players and Utd's transfers were much better. In your defence, a lot of people laughed when City signed Stones (yes I know he signed the summer before), Walker, Danilo, Ederson etc.
 

fez

fez

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Any United fan that would take Mata over Silva at any point in the past 5 years is nuts. Silva has always been considerably better in every area of the game.

Not sure I agree with your assessment of the rest of the teams but Silva and Aguero have been massive players for City for a long time now.
 
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Mata and Silva are pretty similar. Given how Silva is playing in a far more attacking side his stats are very similar to Mata's when you'd expect them to be much better.
 
Don
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Any United fan that would take Mata over Silva at any point in the past 5 years is nuts. Silva has always been considerably better in every area of the game.

Not sure I agree with your assessment of the rest of the teams but Silva and Aguero have been massive players for City for a long time now.
Fwiw, I'd have taken Silva over Mata but I'm sure if I gave Utd fans the choice 18 months ago the majority wouldn't have. As I said, we had a thread asking this very question 3-4 years back and Mata was the overwhelming winner.

Silva is like a new player under Pep. The last year or so before Pep arrived he'd started to tail off and there was always the big debate over City in big games and how they needed to sacrifice him or Toure for an extra defensive player in midfield. Pep brought him back into a more orthodox central midfield role and he's playing as well as ever before. That's the difference between the two managers right there. Pep's taken so many players like Silva who were coasting/in decline/not fulfilling their potential, tweaked things and they're playing as well as ever.
Mata and Silva are pretty similar. Given how Silva is playing in a far more attacking side his stats are very similar to Mata's when you'd expect them to be much better.
Mata plays in a much more attacking position tbf. Silva's never been a massive goal threat even when he played further up the pitch though, he's more a player that plays the pass before the assist than the one that directly scores/assists.
 
Soldato
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De Gea/Hart - No contest.
Defence - Kompany was a crock, Demichelis, Otamendi and Mangala all looked like car crash players and City had 3 full backs that were well past their best. Jones was a crock but not to Kompany levels and Rojo, Smalling, Blind certainly weren't as bad as City's CB's. I'd have certainly taken Shaw, Darmian & Valencia over City's fullbacks too.
Midfield - Fernandinho, Toure, Fernando & Delph. The latter 3 were all considered useless or past it. Herrera, Carrick, Schwiensteiger, Schneiderlin, Fellaini. Carrick & Schwiensteiger were certainly past it and most would say Fellaini was useless however it's fair to say Mourinho wouldn't share that view. 18 months ago I offer you Herrera or Fernandinho, not 1 Utd fan takes Fernandinho and Schneiderlin certainly isn't losing out to Delph in an argument.
Attacking Mids/Wingers: Not 1 Utd fan is taking Sterling over Rashford, not 1 Utd fan is taking Silva over Mata (we even had a thread on this a few years ago when Silva was at his peak), Navas was certainly no better than Depay. Maybe not the best direct comparison (although both were playing as wide attackers 18 months ago) but if you were offered Martial or KDB 18 months ago, are you honestly saying many Utd fans are taking KDB?
Strikers - Aguero is the only 1 worth mentioning at both clubs..

Both sides finished on level points the season before Pep/Mourinho arrived and looking at the state of their squads it's easy to see why. City had more going forward, Utd better at the back but overall there wasn't much in it - both sides were made up of a mix of promising players, a few players at their peak and a load of players that used to be very good but were now past their best.

City haven't spent a great deal more than Utd in the past 18 months, certainly not enough to justify the difference in progress both sides have made and again lets be fair, when I said in the summer that City were the only side to have got their first choice targets (regardless of what I thought of them), you objected to that and said they'd signed average players and Utd's transfers were much better. In your defence, a lot of people laughed when City signed Stones (yes I know he signed the summer before), Walker, Danilo, Ederson etc.[/QUOTE]

Most of this is complete gibberish

1) Shaw was still to even play his 1st game back from a double fracture 18 months ago - so any left back was better at that point even before considering the last 18 months
2) Centre backs - Debatable, given that Bailly basically didn't have any worthwhile top level experience at that point (literally a handful of games in La Liga from what I recall) the only difference between Jones and Kompany is age, they are both as injury prone as each other and from Utd's point of view it only gets worse from there

3) Carrick, Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger were practically non existant anyway, Fellaini is / was a barge board and not much else - and you are suggesting Toure was washed up - not with the number of gaols he got up to the end of last season from CM positions compared to Utd .
Most fans would take either Fernando or Fernandinho over Fellaini every day of the week let alone over Schneiderlin or Schweinsteiger
4) Silva's prior to 18 months ago has averaged 7 EPL goals over the preceeding 3 years , I don't think Mata has even scored 7 goals for Utd in a single season (he did once in his first full season). No way would I choose Mata over Silva even in the summer of '16.
(Mata has got this "nice guy" image, no doubt about it, but Ive been sick and tired of him for at least two full seasons, he is nearly as invisible as Ozil most of the time).
5) I don't know how you can honestly compare Martial to KDB - given that 18 months ago Martial only had one full season in the top flight, KDB had three and that much older. Its no comparing like to like in any realistic way at all...not that that would bother you of course
No way would any Utd fan expect Martial to have the same level of experience that KDB has - everyone might well grow up at different speeds but to even consider them comparable at that stage is laughable.

The same could be said for the comparison between Stirling and Rashford - how they play and how they deal with everything has everything to do with how much personal experience they have - Stirling has 3 additional years of experience to fall back on over the younger Utd player?

Also the fact they are usually able to sell any players they don't want for a lot more in general than Utd are able to do probably means their excess is of a better quality to start with (with potential for better negotiators also admittedly)

Only a completely blind person (or someone heavily biased) would say City's squad was similar in quality at that point

You have a very bad habit of ignoring a lot of significant factors because it doesn't suit your point of view.

Its also the case that City have bought in 9 players at least since the beginning of last season, while Utd have paid for 6 (+ one free transfer)
 
Don
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Most of this is complete gibberish
Thanks. It probably makes perfect sense to everybody else :p

edit: I've just read the rest. You have the cheek to say I ignore significant factors to suit my argument?!?! Coming from the man that claimed a penalty that missed the target was well placed! :D
 
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So here we are.

He's throwing most of the players under the bus, and has even attempted to blame the fans.

No more excuses, the expectation of half decent football is not unreasonable. Enough money has been spent.

The Portuguese David Moyes. Marvellous.
 
Soldato
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Results and performances aside... He's an ********, to the club, the players and the fans.

I was hoping he'd at least bring back a strong mentality to this squad and the club as a platform to move forward from... instead he's completely broke them.
 
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A couple of podcasts I listen mention the fact that Mourinho likes to come out with some ridiculous comments to distract from his teams poor performances. The media laps it up and ends up focussing on him instead of going after the team or players. This feels like more of the same.
 
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A couple of podcasts I listen mention the fact that Mourinho likes to come out with some ridiculous comments to distract from his teams poor performances. The media laps it up and ends up focussing on him instead of going after the team or players. This feels like more of the same.
yeah that's standard mourinho but standard Mourinho also results in implosion over a long enough period.

He's like big Sam in a way. Sam will come in and play dull football but get you results to stay in the league and then be moved on. Mourinho will come in play dull football and get you results if you give him enough money and then be moved on.

No point him trying to change that. It's worked for him. I do wonder who manU eventually want to get though. Don't believe he's their long term. Plan. Must be a plan B at least.
 
Don
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He's not trying to get the club to sack him. When he starts coming out with statements like "if they sack me I'm rich" like he did at Chelsea then he's asking for the sack. This is standard Mourinho right back from 2005 - when things get difficult and he's starting to get criticised, the loveable Jose becomes a defensive, nasty, spiteful **** that will do or say anything to deflect any criticism from himself. He will never change.
 
Soldato
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So here we are.

He's throwing most of the players under the bus, and has even attempted to blame the fans.

No more excuses, the expectation of half decent football is not unreasonable. Enough money has been spent.

The Portuguese David Moyes. Marvellous.

If you just look at positioning, 2nd in league, CL, FA Cup etc we've not been as high (combined) for quite some time.

I don't think anyone in the management structure cares as long as the £ keeps rolling in...
 
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If you just look at positioning, 2nd in league, CL, FA Cup etc we've not been as high (combined) for quite some time.

I don't think anyone in the management structure cares as long as the £ keeps rolling in...

After years of outrageous spending, something Moyes was never afforded lol
 
Soldato
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After years of outrageous spending, something Moyes was never afforded lol

Well we can't go back in time. It is what it is.

I'm no Jose fan, I've said from the start that he's toxic, but everyone knows this, it should be no surprise. I also feel he's not the only problem though.
 
Don
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I don't think anyone in the management structure cares as long as the £ keeps rolling in...
This is one of the reasons why Utd only appointed Mourinho as a last resort. If Mourinho had the chance he'd spend enough money to bankrupt the world - the Glazers only allowed the club to start spending and eventually appointed Mourinho because of failures to qualify and establish themselves in the CL spots. A point will come where the owners will start to question why they're spending similar money to City but are getting far less return on their investment, especially when the likes of Liverpool and Spurs are spending far far less yet are not a million miles behind Utd.
 
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