Has making a pass at a woman just become illegal?

Orangeade said:
You haven't engaged with my point at all and I don't think you are engaging in good faith and are deliberately missing the point I was trying to make (or I explained it badly).
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That's because you weren't making a point, you were refuting one. If you want to make a point then go for it.

The examples i gave had nothing to do with existing laws, like i said they were examples of what may or may not be considered to be the actions of a "reasonable person".
 
Freefaller said:
Well rapes and sexual assaults are still an issue. I said the majority are from domestic issues. But there's still a good 20% of them that are not.

So it is relevant.

Feel free to dismiss it or ignore it if you're not interested.
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Yes they are still an issue.

However the topic at hand and being discussed is NOT about how French husbands beat their wives, regardless of how much you try to spin it.

The topic is about law(s) to help protect individuals from feeling threatened, on a night out, or in the work place etc...

Not a single part of the law, or the topic is about domestic violence within relationships, the law(s) are not there to help or protect those in a relationship (protection from their abusive partner that is)

It is not that is not an important topic, or that it's not relevant or deserving of it's own discussion.

But it has NOTHING to do with this discussion, it is a very weak attempt at "whataboutery".

Trying to discredit France and the statement that it had implemented such laws already by stating a completely off-topic and not-even-being-discussed point about how (essentially) "French husbands still beat their wives".

If you can't see that your statement RE: France and domestic violence WITHIN relationships has NOTHING to do with what this law is trying to protect people from, That is your problem.
 
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Orangeade said:
You can just go to a bar for fun times without having to pick someone up.
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Yeah a lot of women who do go to bars and nightclubs are looking to have a bit of fun and are often in relationships and are not looking for one night stands or new relationships. That’s why I say bars and nightclubs aren’t the best place to meet women. Drinking also skews your perception of reality.
 
Orangeade said:
But I don't think that is reasonable to say. Did you never when you were younger chat to a woman in bar? It's quite normal and the worse that would have happened is someone would have said no thanks. You being a gentleman would have then left and that would have been that.

Now you could face a charge. Its not hyperbole or outside reason to see it happening especially for naturally extrovert people who might happen upon someone differently minded.....or someone who's boyfriend suddenly arrived...;)
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No, yea. It most certainly is hyperbole because to even be considered as something you could be charged under with the law you'd need the 'chatting up' (aka: talking to someone) to be considered harassment by a reasonable person, talking to someone ain't that. Repeatedly being told to go away and ignoring the fact that someone clearly isn't interested in talking to you probably would, because most reasonable people would consider that when someone says no they mean it.
 
Devilman said:
Yes they are still an issue.

However the topic at hand and being discussed is NOT about how French husbands beat their wives, regardless of how much you try to spin it.

The topic is about law(s) to help protect individuals from feeling threatened, on a night out, or in the work place etc...

Not a single part of the law, or the topic is about domestic violence within relationships, the law(s) are not there to help or protect those in a relationship (protection from their abusive partner that is)

It is not that is not an important topic, or that it's not relevant or deserving of it's own discussion.

But it has NOTHING to do with this discussion, it is a very weak attempt at "whataboutery".

Trying to discredit France and the statement that it had implemented such laws already by stating a completely off-topic and not-even-being-discussed point about how (essentially) "French husbands still beat their wives".

If you can't see that your statement RE: France and domestic violence WITHIN relationships has NOTHING to do with what this law is trying to protect people from, That is your problem.
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I'm not trying to spin anything, maybe you need to loosen your underwear a bit you seem to be getting a little uptight.

I have no idea what "whataboutery" means - I was adding to the conversation, it maybe slightly tangential, but it forms part of the bigger picture. The issues in France hasn't gone away, and in spite of these laws sexual assaults are still prevalent, and so the behaviours of people isn't' changing significantly enough yet. However I did caveat it that the lockdown and isolation played it's part as it did in most of the world - the UK has had it's fair run too.

I added stats to my post which shows the issue that exists.

I am all for these laws - I'm not trying to discredit them at all, I want the world to be a more equitable place (not equal - that doesn't exist and can't exist).
 
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SexyGreyFox said:
No you won't, as soon as they show no interest you bugger off.
The problem is some blokes will be full of alcohol and won't get the signals when to bugger off.
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I remember being at a gig in Brighton with the gf at the time.
She went for a cigarette, I was joining after toilet duties.
Found her outside and a random guy talking to her, slipped in to conversation and was clear what his intentions were immediately.
Took far far too long for him to get the hint and we both just ended up walking off from him.
Horny men are idiots when drunk.
 
sidimmu said:
I remember being at a gig in Brighton with the gf at the time.
She went for a cigarette, I was joining after toilet duties.
Found her outside and a random guy talking to her, slipped in to conversation and was clear what his intentions were immediately.
Took far far too long for him to get the hint and we both just ended up walking off from him.
Horny men are idiots when drunk.
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To be fair horny men are idiots most of the time! :D
 
Freefaller said:
<snip>

Sexual harassment is still an issue. Quite sad to see under 15s having such a problem though. My point was also that the laws as good as they may be aren't a cure-all.

That said I'm not sure if these assaults are inter-familial or gang related, or religiously driven.
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Holy crap that figure for under 15s and the 15-17 is awful :(
 
Freefaller said:
It is :( even if the age of consent is 15 it's still shocking the numbers under 15.
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Not to mention those statistics only cover the girls / ladies.

I do find it odd sometimes how so often in these kinds of discussions / statistical analysis it seems to be overlooked, or forgotten that boys / men are also victims of sexual assault / violence.

However I do not wish to pull the discussion too far off-topic, so perhaps better left for another time :)
 
Murphy said:
No, yea. It most certainly is hyperbole because to even be considered as something you could be charged under with the law you'd need the 'chatting up' (aka: talking to someone) to be considered harassment by a reasonable person, talking to someone ain't that. Repeatedly being told to go away and ignoring the fact that someone clearly isn't interested in talking to you probably would, because most reasonable people would consider that when someone says no they mean it.
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And if she tells the police she told you to go away repeatedly and you kept asking for her number?

Either they believe her and you are guilty, or they don't and the law is a waste of time.
 
Haggisman said:
And if she tells the police she told you to go away repeatedly and you kept asking for her number?

Either they believe her and you are guilty, or they don't and the law is a waste of time.
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Or a third option, lying in that middle ground "grey area" where most of life actually goes on....

For many cases it will be a "He said / She said" and without any compelling evidence to support either party, I can see those kinds of cases being dropped.

However....

For a not insignificant number of cases there will be evidence, or witnesses and in those such cases, law(s) like this still have the capacity to help catch / prevent a more serious crime from being perpetrated later on (stalking / assault etc..).

For those saying "it's a waste of time", I would say the same thing I said in the "Emergency Alerts to Mobile Phones" Thread...

If this saves just 1 or 2 lives from being destroyed because a would-be stalker gets caught early, it's WELL worth the minor inconvenience it may pose to everyone else.
 
Haggisman said:
And if she tells the police she told you to go away repeatedly and you kept asking for her number?

Either they believe her and you are guilty, or they don't and the law is a waste of time.
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Then the police would do what they do and asses whether he claims sound credible and maybe they'll have a word with you. If the police really wanted to be dicks about it they could press charges and you'd both have your chance in court to put forward your side of the argument.

I swear some people have had no experience with law enforcement whatsoever.
 
Devilman said:
Or a third option, lying in that middle ground "grey area" where most of life actually goes on....

For many cases it will be a "He said / She said" and without any compelling evidence to support either party, I can see those kinds of cases being dropped.

However....

For a not insignificant number of cases there will be evidence, or witnesses and in those such cases, law(s) like this still have the capacity to help catch / prevent a more serious crime from being perpetrated later on (stalking / assault etc..).

For those saying "it's a waste of time", I would say the same thing I said in the "Emergency Alerts to Mobile Phones" Thread...

If this saves just 1 or 2 lives from being destroyed because a would-be stalker gets caught early, it's WELL worth the minor inconvenience it may pose to everyone else.
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Aye It's almost certainly being brought in for much the same reason they brought in laws like the mobile phone ones*, or they've tried to bring in laws about "up skirting"**.
There may already be laws that could be used to cover it, but it's incredibly hard to meet the requirements for those broader laws with these sorts of offences, so you make a law that is specifically to deal with one aspect of it if you find the existing laws just aren't working.

IIRC even the "stalking" laws were introduced to deal with a specific subset of behaviour that was already technically illegal under other laws, but hard to meet the general requirements.


*Technically using a mobile phone whilst driving was always "careless driving" (or dangerous) as it involved putting yourself in a position where you were unable to properly control the vehicle (hands off wheel for extended periods), and not paying attention to the road but it was very hard to prove.

**IIRC it is already covered under several laws, but very hard to prove/get it treated seriously so a separate offence means it's specifically banned and pretty much black and white (I think the exiting laws require something like showing you're doing it for sexual gratification).
 
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