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Soldato
All the above are dual use facilities (often used by both civis or military), which btw the Americans are reluctant to bomb now (note how in Kosovo 1999 they used graphite strand filled cluster bombs to short out the Serbian power grid rather than bomb and totally destroy it, and how it took something like 2 weeks into the war for them to bomb a river bridge in Belgrade.).
Everyone goes mental when a power station is bombed anywhere, lots of ppl scream 'OMG Civilian target, damn yanks', forgetting that airfields, command centres, government buildings and the like are linked to the national grid on most cases. Yes for some vital systems (e.g. runway lights) they will have backup generators, but what about say the living quarters for the troops stationed there, or the guard huts at the base entrance? Put the lights out or turn the heating off (by knocking out the power supply) and it gets their attention pretty fast....watch the fighting capacity of your enemy reduce when their morale drops.
Hitting power stations is a very sensitive issue and nowdays they they try and use other means than conventional explosive bombs (the aforementioned graphite bombs, as they short the power grid out at sub-stations and turn it off for a while but don't destroy it totally), but if the effect on reducing the militarys fighting capacity and their will to fight is deemed a big enough 'bonus' to fighting the war, then they will do it, even if impacts the civilian population.
They won't be targeted, but if they want to help innocent Iraqis then working in a hospital or school (rather than sitting in one of Saddams command centres) is the way to go.
Read my post again. I did not say everyone in the Iraqi military deserves to die.
People working in munitions factories are civlians as well, are they not to be touched either? They can kepp pumping out bombs and guns just so long as theres a civilian working there?
Soldato
Frankly, it's a good thing in some ways that the people who support these terrorists go off and die for their cause by protecting Saddam's military installations rather than suicide bombing a bus or the tube.
As has been said before, these people are not innocent, they are merely extremely cheap (i.e. free) soldiers.
Personally I think this war in Iraq is just stupid, it's not going to achieve anything, as people tend to be extremely good at disappearing. The last war in the Gulf was supposed to get rid of Saddam. Pretty much every war that the Americans have been involved in since the Korean war has been a disaster, Vietnam, Bosnia, the Gulf war, Afghanistan.
I think people need to go away and do some serious thinking before launching into war at such an unstable time.
As has been said before, these people are not innocent, they are merely extremely cheap (i.e. free) soldiers.
Personally I think this war in Iraq is just stupid, it's not going to achieve anything, as people tend to be extremely good at disappearing. The last war in the Gulf was supposed to get rid of Saddam. Pretty much every war that the Americans have been involved in since the Korean war has been a disaster, Vietnam, Bosnia, the Gulf war, Afghanistan.
I think people need to go away and do some serious thinking before launching into war at such an unstable time.
*sighs*
I never said you did mate...I mentioned munitions factories...You distinguished those sites you mentioned by the fact that civilians worked in them. I applied the same logic to a munitions factory.
Surely if its the civilians working within that you are concerned about, then the type of facility is irrelevent?
Soldato
A munitions factory is similar in that it provides something to the government needed to help fight the war, same as a power station (electricity is needed to fight a war and keep the troops happy, fed, warm etc...take it away and they won't want to fight), a bridge (a bottleneck in the transport system), roads and rail networks (how else do supplies get carried to the front).
All of the above may have civilians working in them or using them, but they are military targets as well. If the military benefit if attacking such a target is great enough, then they will be attacked, regardless of the unfortunate civilians who may be there.
All of the above may have civilians working in them or using them, but they are military targets as well. If the military benefit if attacking such a target is great enough, then they will be attacked, regardless of the unfortunate civilians who may be there.
Permabanned
Sheesh and you once had a pop at me for saying a convicted criminal deserved to die :/
Just because they work for th egovernment does not make them evil. People in Iraq need jobs you know.
Soldato
I think since 9/11 happened, there is a growing realisation around the world that in all seriousness, if America wants to go to war then it will - it has the resources and the technology to do so, and when it comes to it, the population supports it too.
All this drumming up of political support etc around the world illustrates the gap that has grown between USA and the rest of the world in terms of military power and diplomatic influence.
For example witness mainland europe doing the whole 'war is bad m'kay, make peace not war' when the Afghanistan situation arose. It must have been hard for Bush to hold himself back from just saying 'fine, well Im going to do it anyway, whether you like it or not.'
I think people forget (particularly terrorists) that America is an incredibly powerful force in the world, and if it was hell-bent on world domination then not much would be able to prevent it (whether this is a good thing or not is another matter)
All this drumming up of political support etc around the world illustrates the gap that has grown between USA and the rest of the world in terms of military power and diplomatic influence.
For example witness mainland europe doing the whole 'war is bad m'kay, make peace not war' when the Afghanistan situation arose. It must have been hard for Bush to hold himself back from just saying 'fine, well Im going to do it anyway, whether you like it or not.'
I think people forget (particularly terrorists) that America is an incredibly powerful force in the world, and if it was hell-bent on world domination then not much would be able to prevent it (whether this is a good thing or not is another matter)
Permabanned
Originally posted by Balddog
Well I was more having a go at your hypocrisy back then mate
You should reread what I wrote as well..I was very careful in choosing my words.
Having reread it I can see your point now.
You win this time baldypooch, damn you
I understand the points you are making and in some of them
you are quite correct. If I was going to fight a war I'm
sure I'd take out those self same targets, I suppose what
this is boiling down to is whether you think war with Iraq
is necessary or justified. These "Human Shields" are trying
to highlight the plight of the Iraqi people and to make people
stop and think about what they are planning to do.
you are quite correct. If I was going to fight a war I'm
sure I'd take out those self same targets, I suppose what
this is boiling down to is whether you think war with Iraq
is necessary or justified. These "Human Shields" are trying
to highlight the plight of the Iraqi people and to make people
stop and think about what they are planning to do.
For the record, I dont support a war with Iraq but protecting Saddam is not the way to go about stopping a war.
All they will achieve is to make sure that while the war still goes ahead, it will damage the Iraqi people to the same extent but will leave Saddams regime in perfect condition. That will result in an unresolved situation and possible further military action in the future.
All they will achieve is to make sure that while the war still goes ahead, it will damage the Iraqi people to the same extent but will leave Saddams regime in perfect condition. That will result in an unresolved situation and possible further military action in the future.
Soldato
Re-read balddogs statement - i think you missed an important word.... while
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