Hungary Grand Prix 2011, Hungaroring Circuit - Race 11/19

sunama said:
IIRC all of Button's 5 wins for McLaren have come in damp/wet conditions and not a single win in the dry.
Click to expand...

I'd say he is winning in the dry, he's nowhere and the track dries out, he wins ;)

sunama said:
Okay...so you are arguing that he got lucky in this GP.
What about the other 4 wet race which he won for McLaren? Are they also down to luck?
And more importantly why is he not getting "lucky" in the dry races?
Click to expand...

Yes event's came to him in the wet/dry races. Of course this happens more often in these races because more mistakes are made and tyre choices and when to be on them are more important.

Lewis was mighty in the wet/damp conditions yesterday. Button, Alonso and just about everyone was running wide but he was never in trouble. Until the 2nd rain spell on softs he came unstuck.

What does surprise me these days is how often in these conditions cars have a full tyre on the painted surface. The grip levels must be much higher on those kerbs than they used to be. So many of them are confident enough to put a wheel there.
 
NathanE said:
I'm starting to think Button doesn't really care any more in these situations. He puts up a token fight to make it look like he isn't a push over but then once things are too tight he just lets him go. It's like "I'll just let him go and I'll get him back later once he's crashed or spun" ;)

I honestly think the incident in Canada was brought about by Jenson trying to keep up appearances of fighting when really he just secretly wanted to let Lewis pass. Unfortunately when you're only "half fighting" you are probably also only "half thinking" as well. Hence the incident.
Click to expand...

Haha in all honestly I'm old and my memory isn't what it was. Has there ever been a time where wheel to wheel Jenson in the same car has ended up beating his team mate. Even if he passes him to my memory Hamilton takes it right back, no matter if it's wet, dry or inters?
 
NathanE said:
I'm not one of those blind idiots that is just arguing "haaah Jenson got lucky, again."

You make your own luck and that is what I am saying. Jenson made his luck by biding his time in this race.

He wouldn't have won in Canada if there wasn't the incident with his team mate. Which was blatantly a 50/50 incident. The McLaren had extra wing on and was so obviously going to win anyway in those conditions. And since Hamilton is faster than him on raw pace in the wet then it's obvious what the outcome would have been.

Australia 2010 he was going backwards. Made a huge gamble on some inters. Slid straight off. Vettel crashed from brake failure. Inherited the win.

China 2010 he won by bunching up the field behind the SC so tightly that everyone almost crashed into each other at the bottom of Turn 1. Amazingly he didn't get penalised!
Click to expand...

Pretty much how I see it too.

Mind you, I was still very happy for him when he won, 200th race and all!
 
Last edited:
dannyjo22 said:
Even when asked on the forum you could see Button knew he was going to come in for inters but then had a laugh about it being another could team decision.
Click to expand...

No - actually it looked totally different to me

He said he ignored the first call as he didnt want inters at that time and then "being fair to the team, nearer the end of the lap they came back on the radio and told me to stay out as LH was coming in first" - I think he even said it was a relief

I think he was grinning because of how the question /answer was stated (and because he won) not because he was going to come in (for inters) at all

dannyjo22 said:
Because in the WET Hamilton is faster than him as shown yesterday. Button had one look into turn one on inters and then Hamilton controlled the race.

Hamilton was faster than him in the WET at Canada by quite a margain until they came together.

Hamilton was faster than him in the WET at Autralia in 2010.
Click to expand...

In little bits of the race you may be correct - but 0.1 s here and 0.2s there is still going to be slower than 0.4s faster later on and 0.5s on the next lap.

Its lights to flag that counts - not a few individual laps before LH burns his tyres or has to economise because of the fuel etc etc

Just as yesterday in the initial phases of each leg - LH was faster on the first few laps, and then JB got faster and faster and equaled or bettered LH nearer to the end (and while LH was going faster for majority of the last 10 laps - by then JB wasnt competing with him directly anyway so its not really a fair comparison to start with - as JB was obviously managing distance to SV not LH)

You cant take anything from Cananda as LH was in the race suich a short time - no telling what would have happened later on, JB was still able to go faster (and quite a bit faster than most) than the 22 remaining cars on the track - if anything its more like LH would have been among them and been slower than JB at that point (the odds on the one car being capable of being faster being the one thats knocked out is highly remote even if it is the same team's car)



edit - some around here are so amazingly negative its unreal - oh its inherited because x crashed out, oh its lucky becuase of y or z

I guess SV is lucky because he's been in the fastest qualifying car for majority of the season and no one has been able to catch up after a few blistering laps at the start of races, apart from Monaco where Alonso couldnt get past and JB was on the tail of both of them

(and for all you nay sayers - just remember Monaco this year, JB was slaughtering both Alonso and SV and they were saved by the safety car / red flag, but of course JB is only good in the wet isnt he.......)
 
Last edited:
FrankJH said:
Not at all - there are several past incidences when JB has managed to go faster than majority of others on the "wrong" tyres - like Aus last year and his first win in the Honda

At that point in the race there was never enough rain on the track for inters - being so far back at that point Alonso (and Webber) had to gamble anyway - but apart from that it could have been McLaren hedging their bets also

Remember Vettel never stopped (for inters) either so he must have been pretty comfortable - as he ~arguably~ had even more to lose than JB

I guess you know more from watching on telly than the drivers do actually being at the circuit


1) JB seemed to have a much worse 1st pit stop (from what I recall he seemed to lose a **** of a lot of time to LH in the pits (and possibly more due to traffic on the in/out lap)

2) For all we know the car setup (for JB) was geared more to a lighter car at the middle end of the race (on the harder tyres) than to the initial SS setup

3) Vettel held JB up for a few laps also which would have cost him time (cant remember which lap he got past SV)

4) Do we know that both McLaren's had the same amount of fuel ......do they always have the same amount, or does LH's more gung ho way of driving sometmes require more fuel / more economy at certain points in the race?

McLaren timings are interesting but what I would really like to see are when each individual driver set fastest laps (at the time) through out the race - I know both drivers had a few of these through the race
Click to expand...

Jenson, Webber, Hamilton and one of the renaults were sliding off the track through lack of grip. You don't need to be a driver to see how they were struggling on the wrong tyres.

Then, (lap 47) Brundle was heard saying the rain was now coming down heavier, so for all intents and purposes it was too wet for slicks and without knowing what the weather would do, McLaren chose to pit the lead car for inters and split strategy.

I can't speak for Red Bull but perhaps they chose to pit Webber first as the guinea pig? Perhaps Vettel told them he wanted to stay out.. I don't know.
 
EVH said:
Jenson, Webber, Hamilton and one of the renaults were sliding off the track through lack of grip. You don't need to be a driver to see how they were struggling on the wrong tyres..
Click to expand...

Just as Vettel, Massa, Alonso, and a few others did near the start - yet they continued for 10 laps on those tyres

In the incident you are talking about JB went off once, and yes had a little trouble a few more times - but history proves you are wrong, if JB / SV had been on the wrong tyres then they wouldnt have come in 1st and 2nd

Result proves they chose correctly - maybe no one else could handle those tyres for lap after lap in those conditions (at that point in the race) - but those two after initial teething problems drove around the issues and didnt lose 20s each coming into the pits (well 40s as they would have had to change again later on)


EVH said:
Then, (lap 47) Brundle was heard saying the rain was now coming down heavier, so for all intents and purposes it was too wet for slicks and without knowing what the weather would do, McLaren chose to pit the lead car for inters and split strategy.

I can't speak for Red Bull but perhaps they chose to pit Webber first as the guinea pig? Perhaps Vettel told them he wanted to stay out.. I don't know.
Click to expand...

Listen closer - maybe it was a fraction later - MB states "for THAT section of the track" not for the whole track. Over the whole lap slicks/ harder of the two types were the fastest option
 
NathanE said:
Button isn't "great" in the wet at all. That's just a false image and ego that's being built up for him by the media.

Button is a plucky and lucky in damp/wet races. He is rarely "fast" in such conditions. He is more "reliable" than he is "fast". He drives well within both his own and the car's limits. He waits for others in front to make mistakes (whether driving errors or strategic, like them being on the wrong tyres or having too badly worn a set of tyres etc) and inherits their positions.
Click to expand...
I'd say that amounts to being "great in the wet".
If everyone around you is cocking up and you're not, then be it down to luck or caution or whatever else you want to dress it up as - you are better than them in those conditions.
 
Lopéz said:
I'd say that amounts to being "great in the wet".
If everyone around you is cocking up and you're not, then be it down to luck or caution or whatever else you want to dress it up as - you are better than them in those conditions.
Click to expand...

Precisely.

One of the important things in the wet is to keep your head, while all other drivers are losing theirs. Notice that Alonso and Hamilton both had spins/offs, however, Button only had 1 off track excursion (I think). In the end, his conservative/safe driving style, works best in the wet...better than all the other drivers.

He isn't the fastest, but on a wet/damp track, he is able to complete the GP (most of the time), in the shortest possible time.
 
Button isn't great in the wet, I think the commentators always say he's good in changing conditions (i.e. a drying track, showers, generally unpredictable grip).

Given the use of the safety car in Canada I don't think being good in the wet is much use anymore, they won't race in real wet conditions.
 
Telescopi said:
Button isn't great in the wet, I think the commentators always say he's good in changing conditions (i.e. a drying track, showers, generally unpredictable grip).

Given the use of the safety car in Canada I don't think being good in the wet is much use anymore, they won't race in real wet conditions.
Click to expand...

did they actually use full wets in canada or was it inters?
 
I think Button's strengths are very good with variable grip and pretty good on managing tyres. Also seems pretty quick to make a decent decision, something that Hamilton, for example, seems to be lacking at times...
 
utajoker said:
did they actually use full wets in canada or was it inters?
Click to expand...

To be fair by the time they let them race most drivers had to keep going off line to stop the full wet tyres falling apart.

The last sc was just a joke, by the time they let them go they came in for slicks!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom