Indian Grand Prix 2011, Buddh International Circuit - Race 17/19

JRS said:
IIRC, Hamilton wasn't penalised for the hairpin clash in Monaco. He was penalised for putting Massa wide in the tunnel, onto the marbles and into a crash.
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I thought it was for the collision at the hairpin, but the official statement was causing an avoidable accident.

So no clarification there.

If it was for massa trying to go around the edge of the tunnel, then it's even more ridiculous. I walked through the tunnel a couple of weeks later and there was still bits of rubber everywhere *and a couple of bits of red painted carbon fibre too... ;)*
 
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I'm always going to apply normal racing rules.. if you have reasonable overlap (50%+), both must give each other room, so no turning into that at the apex, and no running them wide on the exit.

The Monaco incident was another one where Massa had LH up his ass, he was clearly all over him, yet he took a massively wide line into the hairpin, leaving a barn door open.. That doesn't excuse Lewis, but it turns it into being more a racing incident..

DC's comment that it's always the car behinds responsibility to get out the way is ridiculous, unworkable and against racing, when you have such small margins in performance, like F1, or even BTCC as another fine example, you have to start applying overlap guidelines and how lead/attacking cars need to behave in these situations. How many opportunities do you get in F1 where you can easily get completely by someone? Most of the time, even when you are quicker, you are lucky to get some overlap at all..
 
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Skeeter said:
He was penalised for the hairpin clash.
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Folks keep saying that, but....I dunno, I didn't think the incident report from the stewards made it clear and it was a clash that resulted in a few shards of carbon fibre getting scattered and no change in position on the road. Doesn't seem like 'causing an avoidable accident' to me, since it was barely an accident.

Now, putting his car inside of Massa in the tunnel and edging him over to the marbles....that would fit.

Skeeter said:
Massa went off in the tunnel all on his own.
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You think he went onto the marbles at the side of the road all by himself? I'm not so sure, but I'll happily defer to anyone with greater knowledge :)
 
I realise I'm late in wading into this debate, and will no doubt wind up the already entrenched opinions on here, but I think that Lewis in a way made it less Massa's fault by braking a bit too early. If you watch the replay, he was pulling alongside Felipe, but then slowed a touch before him, meaning it ended up being wheel-to-wheel, rather than wheel-to-sidepod.

It sounds silly to say, because technically it's more dangerous, but if he'd just kept going an instant longer, he'd have ended up forcing Massa to let him through, and if a crash had still occurred, it almost certainly wouldn't have been him at fault.
 
JRS said:
Folks keep saying that, but....I dunno, I didn't think the incident report from the stewards made it clear and it was a clash that resulted in a few shards of carbon fibre getting scattered and no change in position on the road. Doesn't seem like 'causing an avoidable accident' to me, since it was barely an accident.

Now, putting his car inside of Massa in the tunnel and edging him over to the marbles....that would fit.



You think he went onto the marbles at the side of the road all by himself? I'm not so sure, but I'll happily defer to anyone with greater knowledge :)
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We have seen people penalised for far less contact.

I fail to see how the tunnel could be seen as anything other than Massa doing it on his own. Hamilton got alongside, and took the racing line, Massa was offline and lost it on the marballs. You can't start penalising people for being side by side.

The penalty was definitely for the hairpin clash. There is no grounds for any incident in the tunnel. The track is defined by the full width, they were both well on it, and they didn't touch. Penalising Hamilton for that would amount to penalising a driver for not allowing another driver onto the racing line while overtaking them, which is just stupid.

Wether Massa blamed the hairpin clash for him crashing out is irrelivent, the 'incident' that Hamilton was deemed to have caused was the hairpin one.
 
It was just a racing incident. Being in front at the apex is at best a guideline. In a real racing situation a pass in almost never going to be that textbook and you can't just make your car disappear because you were 1mm too far away from him and he chooses to turn in on you. In previous cases Hamilton has often been pretty far back when he's tried the move but in this case he was side by side when they entered the braking zone. Massa made the choice to give him zero room which is fine but he has to accept that the likely outcome is that there will be contact especially with someone like Hamilton who isn't exactly known for giving up.

Personally I think they should have put this down to a racing incident and forget it but F1 seems like like attempting to ruin the racing with too many rules these days. They do have a point though in that Massa didn't seem to make any attempt to defend what so ever and then suddenly turns in on him.
 
I think the key point, which Johnny Herbert made a point of highlighting, was that Massa knew Hamilton was there, but decided to turn in anyway.

Regardless of whether the guy is fully alongside you or only partially alongside you, you cannot turn in knowing that doing so will cause contact. Its that decision that Massa was penalised for. And rightly so.

utajoker said:
I don't believe red bill turned Kees and the engine down. All talk to scare the rest.
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As far as I am aware, changing anything on the car remotely from the pitlane (or anywhere else) is against the regulations. RBR could not have turned Vettels KERS off and engine down. They could have asked the driver to do it, but as for actually doing it themselves, it didn't happen.
 
Would the guys saying that this latest accident was definitely worthy of a penalty for Massa answer me one question, honestly?


  • If the positions had been reversed, Massa trying to get by Hamilton, how many of you would have been baying for a penalty for Massa and disgusted when Hamilton got one?
Because let's face it - we all know that this forum would have ******* errupted in that situation ;):p:D
 
JRS said:
Would the guys saying that this latest accident was definitely worthy of a penalty for Massa answer me one question, honestly?


  • If the positions had been reversed, Massa trying to get by Hamilton, how many of you would have been baying for a penalty for Massa and disgusted when Hamilton got one?
Because let's face it - we all know that this forum would have ******* errupted in that situation ;):p:D
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The battle on these forums between the pro/anti everything Lewis groups here is the most exciting thing to happen on race weekends lately, don't knock it! :p
 
Weebull said:
I realise I'm late in wading into this debate, and will no doubt wind up the already entrenched opinions on here, but I think that Lewis in a way made it less Massa's fault by braking a bit too early. If you watch the replay, he was pulling alongside Felipe, but then slowed a touch before him, meaning it ended up being wheel-to-wheel, rather than wheel-to-sidepod.

It sounds silly to say, because technically it's more dangerous, but if he'd just kept going an instant longer, he'd have ended up forcing Massa to let him through, and if a crash had still occurred, it almost certainly wouldn't have been him at fault.
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I think the only way Lewis would have caused FM to yield is if he had 85% overlap, i.e. his front wing totally in the limited view of the driver..

The problem with F1 is the marginal performance difference is at odds with the visibility they have.. All Felipe would have known is Lewis had some overlap, looked over, made the decision it wasn't enough for him, and as seems to be his usual style, he just took the same racing line he would as per any other lap and assume Lewis would be able to get out the way..

If the car tracking system is accurate enough, perhaps they could aid a driver in telling them effectively how much overlap they have via some visual method.. Or sort the damn mirrors out (Saying that, the speed of F1 cars etc, looking left/right is perhaps much less practical then most forms of motorracing?)


JRS said:
[*]If the positions had been reversed, Massa trying to get by Hamilton, how many of you would have been baying for a penalty for Massa and disgusted when Hamilton got one?
Because let's face it - we all know that this forum would have ******* errupted in that situation ;):p:D
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I get the sense, like me, most of these things look like racing incidents, so however unfortunate, and however much I might prefer LH over FM, it is what it is..

You seem to be under some weird illusion that this forum behaves like the almost religious defending of their national drivers that goes on in other countries and would have some real vitriol against Felipe or any other driver.. I don't see that at all.
 
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JRS said:
Would the guys saying that this latest accident was definitely worthy of a penalty for Massa answer me one question, honestly?


  • If the positions had been reversed, Massa trying to get by Hamilton, how many of you would have been baying for a penalty for Massa and disgusted when Hamilton got one?
Because let's face it - we all know that this forum would have ******* errupted in that situation ;):p:D
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If it had been an isolated incident you're probably right. However, considering the history between the two and the stewards decisions this year, I image it would have been met with a resigned acceptance rather than outrage.
 
Have the FIA said anything about wanting to look at Ferrari's front suspension? I know when another team (RBR?) had a couple of failures the FIA investigated to make sure they weren't to fragile?
 
Demon said:
You seem to be under some weird illusion that this forum behaves like the almost religious defending of their national drivers that goes on in other countries and would have some real vitriol against Felipe or any other driver.. I don't see that at all.
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Not at all, but I'm under no illusions that this forum is devoid of Hamilton fanboys who are convinced that their boy can do no wrong and every stewards decision against him is a conspiracy. And yes, there are also plenty of folks who go the other way and think that he's arrogant and overly aggressive and never going to win another world title.

And then there's people like me, piggy-in-the-middle, hoping that he finds some proper form next year to placate both sides of what has become a particularly dull argument....
 
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Skeeter said:
Have the FIA said anything about wanting to look at Ferrari's front suspension? I know when another team (RBR?) had a couple of failures the FIA investigated to make sure they weren't to fragile?
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I'd guess that given the cause of the suspension failures for Massa was so obvious (clouting those big orange kerbs) they won't feel the need to investigate.
 
Duke said:
Same here.
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+1

I'm just as happy seeing JB do well as I am Hamilton.

It's just so frustrating when you see him throw a race away by doing something hot-headed (trying to win the race on the first corner) or when he says something stupid in a post-race interview (Monaco).

It just seems like wasted potential because we know he's better than he's doing at the moment.
 
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