Indian Grand Prix 2013, New Delhi - Race 16/19

sunama said:
The most risk averse team on the grid who won't say "boo, to a goose" - to create a super fast car, when new regs are introduced?

Possible.

But very unlikely.

Over the last few years, it has been proven that you need a top line driver to win the title. Button is past his best and they don't have a top line driver. Unless they produce a car which is at least 0.5s/lap faster than everybody else, they have no chance of winning the title with their current drivers. Remember, they had the (joint) fastest car in 2012 and got beaten by Alonso and Kimi, who drove slower cars.

If McLaren (management) had any balls, they'd have hired Alonso, once Kimi signed for Ferrari. Make him the highest paid driver in F1, give him whatever he wants and tell him that they are putting a lot on the line by hiring him. Make sure he knows that he MUST perform and show that he is the best in the World. Alonso gets to choose his No.2. No ifs or buts. Both championships to be won by year 3. Unfortunately, this would mean that they would step on Ferrari's toes...and we can't have that. Too risky.

McLaren are a juggernaut.
Huge resources.
A factory which is awe-inspiring.
Great employees.
McLaren can beat great, again.
But the current management are so scared of taking risks, it begs belief.

This is F1 for crying out loud. As Sparky said earlier in this thread, you need to run your car on the edge. Doing this is risky as your car may break, but risk taking is what gets you to the top.

Some people say that the driver contributes very little. I disagree. The driver is one of the most important factors when it comes to winning a race. If Vettel didnt exist, Webber would not have won any of the titles. Vettel made the difference in the last 4 years. A top driver is needed to win a title, these days.
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Mclaren have pursued and are still chasing Alonso for 2014. They want Button and Alonso in the same team. Martin Whitmarsh has stated exactly that. How the talks are going / have gone is another story.

"Alonso's single season at McLaren in 2007 ended in bitter acrimony and a swift divorce, but team boss Martin Whitmarsh has publicly confirmed he wants to re-sign the Spaniard following a dismal campaign in which Sergio Perez has failed to impress alongside Jenson Button.

"I am told by a credible source that their efforts are very much continuing to get him in the car for 2014," Sky F1 columnist Mark Hughes revealed during coverage of Friday practice for the Korean GP.

It had been thought that, were Alonso to be lured back to McLaren, it would be for the 2015 season when the team will once again join forces with Honda.

While Button has signed a contract extension for next season, Perez's future with McLaren remains clouded in doubt, with the Mexican's seat for next season still not guaranteed even if, as is expected, Alonso opts to remain at Ferrari."
 
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Spuj said:
In the radio link posted on the last page, can anyone make out what Kimi says after don't shout? I'm struggling to distinguish what was said :(
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Top comment on Youtube. :)

Presuming he ever talks over the radio to his engineers (other than shooting them down), you have to wonder how they work out what he's saying.

No wonder Nokia never mastered voice recognition.
 
As a lotus supporter I will never forget the tyre compound change.. It also stole all the excitement from the wdc./wcc
I'm not even going to look at what the difference in prize money wcc 1st to third is


Worse than the mass damper fiasco where it almost cost the team a wcc


As for next year.. Think it could quite likely he worse, hopefully it isnt


It also looks like PM may be going to lotus
Sad times, all I can hope for is that he performs and behaves
:-\
 
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sunama said:
If Vettel didnt exist, Webber would not have won any of the titles. Vettel made the difference in the last 4 years. A top driver is needed to win a title, these days.
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That is not true at all, look again at the 2010 standings. If Vettel wasn't there he would have won the title. For starters when Webber was about to win 3 on the trot his **** of a team mate wiped them both out.

With races 3 or so races to go had red bull chosen to with webber leading the title they could have backed him, used team orders like they would for vettel or a lesser team mate alongside webber and the title would have been his.

Or another way of thinking is as you rate vettel so highly he clearly took considerable points out of webbers tally. Webber almost took the title in 2010. Had vettel not been there to take points from him he most certainly would have taken the 2010 title. I cannot see how even you could disagree with that.

Then it's guesswork but with the backing and no1 in the team and the confidence of actually being wanted (with no vettel) he could quite easily have kicked on to atleast one more title, possibly more.

A top car is needed to win titles. Whats the gap in qualifying percentage or race pace from Webber to Vettel. Or massa to Alonso. That would tell you how much of the percentage is down to the driver per laptime and I doubt it's even 5% of a lap time?
 
al4x said:
As a lotus supporter I will never forget the tyre compound change.. It also stole all the excitement from the wdc./wcc
I'm not even going to look at what the difference in prize money wcc 1st to third is


Worse than the mass damper fiasco where it almost cost the team a wcc
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Vettel would almost certainly have won the title anyway. He was there and there abouts at mid-season, and whatever you say, the change in tyre construction (remember the compound is still the same as the early races) wouldn't have helped him that much. The car is faster now than it was, and that's what's made him dominant in the last dozen races. The title might have come later than it has, but it certainly would have come.

And let's be honest, the the mass damper thing was probably Renault being screwed over, while the tyre construction was a necessary change from a safety point of view.
 
this_is_gav said:
Vettel would almost certainly have won the title anyway. He was there and there abouts at mid-season, and whatever you say, the change in tyre construction (remember the compound is still the same as the early races) wouldn't have helped him that much. The car is faster now than it was, and that's what's made him dominant in the last dozen races. The title might have come later than it has, but it certainly would have come.

And let's be honest, the the mass damper thing was probably Renault being screwed over, while the tyre construction was a necessary change from a safety point of view.
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I dont deny that but I would put money on lotus getting second. And pushing red bull probably further than this race.
 
XeNoN89 said:
Even though the cars have always been great for him, the fact he's won 4 times in a row shows he has some talent. Not all drivers would have done the same. Obviously Hamilton, Alonso and Kimi would have also won 4 in a row with that car, but a lot of others are debatable. Would Button and Rosberg have managed it for example? I'm not so sure.
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What you should be asking yourself is, would Vettel have managed it in a McLaren, or a Ferrari, for example, not the other way around...

Yes sure he has 'some' talent but don't they all in a great car?

The fact is, he's never had a bad car, how can he possibly be judged as a great driver when he has never shown his worth in a poor car? Answer is simply, he can't.
 
just.be said:
What you should be asking yourself is, would Vettel have managed it in a McLaren, or a Ferrari, for example, not the other way around...

Yes sure he has 'some' talent but don't they all in a great car?

The fact is, he's never had a bad car, how can he possibly be judged as a great driver when he has never shown his worth in a poor car? Answer is simply, he can't.
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This is it. It's not even difficult to see
The brawn car made it more apparent than most in recent years, the end of this season feels like that
It grnds my gears how people think that car was produced by a small underdog team when it wasn't
 
smr said:
Mclaren have pursued and are still chasing Alonso for 2014. They want Button and Alonso in the same team. Martin Whitmarsh has stated exactly that. How the talks are going / have gone is another story.

"Alonso's single season at McLaren in 2007 ended in bitter acrimony and a swift divorce, but team boss Martin Whitmarsh has publicly confirmed he wants to re-sign the Spaniard following a dismal campaign in which Sergio Perez has failed to impress alongside Jenson Button.

"I am told by a credible source that their efforts are very much continuing to get him in the car for 2014," Sky F1 columnist Mark Hughes revealed during coverage of Friday practice for the Korean GP.

It had been thought that, were Alonso to be lured back to McLaren, it would be for the 2015 season when the team will once again join forces with Honda.

While Button has signed a contract extension for next season, Perez's future with McLaren remains clouded in doubt, with the Mexican's seat for next season still not guaranteed even if, as is expected, Alonso opts to remain at Ferrari."
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Let's say that Alonso does stay with Ferrari for 2014 but agrees to join McLaren for 2015 and the new Honda engines. If McLaren fire Perez for next season, who do they run for a single season? One of their test drivers? Magnussen? See if they're any good compared to Button and farm them out to another F1 team for 2015 if they are?

This is my first post in the Indian GP thread so I'm not basing my thinking on any posts other than yours. :)
 
dannyjo22 said:
Yep four titles, Vettel now better than Senna. I don't think it will be long before he has 8.
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Just to pick up on that, Vettel better than Senna? More specifically, Vettel has won a title more than Senna. Prost got 4 titles too, yet Senna is still regarded as more of a legend, suggesting that by his courage, conviction and skill he might have gone on to win 4 or more had his career not been cut tragically short. And bear in mind risk was higher since car speed was less restricted and general safety in the sport was not as evolved then as it is today.
 
this_is_gav said:
Top comment on Youtube. :)

Presuming he ever talks over the radio to his engineers (other than shooting them down), you have to wonder how they work out what he's saying.

No wonder Nokia never mastered voice recognition.
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It can't be fun being on that side of the garage anymore, it seems there is no working relationship there whatsoever :confused:
 
Merlin5 said:
Just to pick up on that, Vettel better than Senna? More specifically, Vettel has won a title more than Senna. Prost got 4 titles too, yet Senna is still regarded as more of a legend, suggesting that by his courage, conviction and skill he might have gone on to win 4 or more had his career not been cut tragically short. And bear in mind risk was higher since car speed was less restricted and general safety in the sport was not as evolved then as it is today.
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I was being even remotely serious :p
 
MarcLister said:
Let's say that Alonso does stay with Ferrari for 2014 but agrees to join McLaren for 2015 and the new Honda engines. If McLaren fire Perez for next season, who do they run for a single season? One of their test drivers? Magnussen? See if they're any good compared to Button and farm them out to another F1 team for 2015 if they are?

This is my first post in the Indian GP thread so I'm not basing my thinking on any posts other than yours. :)
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Any reason to suggest Perez wont be given a 2nd chance in 2014? Every report Ive read suggests not, but stranger things have happened before lol

Magnussen does look promising but he will need more than a season to find his feet imo, so farming him out for 2 - 3 years might make sense. Works for McLaren either way, he shouldnt be competition for points scoring places if he is in one of the tail end teams, but relative to any team mate he could show how good he is. If he doesnt work out then McLaren havent "lost " points by putting him in one of their cars and it being too much of a challange.
 
I don't buy the suggestion that Alonso will go to McLaren. It's wishful thinking from McLaren fans

- He is happy at Ferrari and wants to win in that car - it's every driver's dream to do so. The press have nothing to talk about in a boring season so they hype up anything. It's their job. I am sure Alonso is frustrated being so close yet so far, but the same could be said about Hamilton/Rosberg at Merc or Button at McLaren
- Secondly, McLaren are not the ones most likely to beat RBR. Merc are.
- Lastly he was at McLaren and he didn't leave on happy terms. The only team he would go to would be RBR, unless Newey went to Lotus (wishful thinking of a Lotus fan lol)

my 2 cents
 
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FrankJH said:
Any reason to suggest Perez wont be given a 2nd chance in 2014? Every report Ive read suggests not, but stranger things have happened before lol
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Not really. :) Just a lack of news about him being announced for 2014 whereas Button has? Wouldn't it be a typically McLaren thing to do to announce 2014 drivers at the same time?

It does make sense to keep Perez for 2014 if they want Alonso for 2015, why bother sacking Perez, hiring someone for 2014 who knows that no matter what, they aren't there for 2015.
 
MooMoo444 said:
At the risk of upsetting a few locals here, I feel Perez is a better asset than Button if McLaren want to be more aggressive and compete for a WDC.
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Honestly, he's had one decent race all year. How on Earth did you come to that conclusion?

World Champion already (so knows how to win a WDC - Perez has only just learnt how to do a double overtake), Qualifying Results, Race Results, more than Quadruple the experience and double the amount of points in the standings this year (thus twice the job that Perez has achieved).....

and you're saying Button is a lesser asset. :rolleyes:

Barmy.
 
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