Intel Core Ultra 9 285k 'Arrow Lake' Discussion/News ("15th gen") on LGA-1851

[Dave2150]

Intel CEO Discloses TSMC Production Details: N3 for Arrow Lake & N3B for Lunar Lake

Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger engaged with press/media representatives following the conclusion of his IFS Direct Connect 2024 keynote speech—when asked about Team Blue's ongoing relationship with TSMC, he confirmed that their manufacturing agreement has advanced from "5 nm to 3 nm." According to a...

www.techpowerup.com

Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger engaged with press/media representatives following the conclusion of his IFS Direct Connect 2024 keynote speech—when asked about Team Blue's ongoing relationship with TSMC, he confirmed that their manufacturing agreement has advanced from "5 nm to 3 nm." According to a China Times news article: "Gelsinger also confirmed the expansion of orders to TSMC, confirming that TSMC will hold orders for Intel's Arrow and Lunar Lake CPU, GPU, and NPU chips this year, and will produce them using the N3B process, officially ushering in the Intel notebook platform that the outside world has been waiting for many years." Past leaks have indicated that Intel's Arrow Lake processor family will have CPU tiles based on their in-house 20A process, while TSMC takes care of the GPU tile aspect with their 3 nm N3 process node.

That generation is expected to launch later this year—the now "officially confirmed" upgrade to 3 nm should produce pleasing performance and efficiency improvements. The current crop of Core Ultra "Meteor Lake" mobile processors has struggled with the latter, especially when compared to rivals. Lunar Lake is marked down for a 2025 launch window, so some aspects of its internal workings remain a mystery—Gelsinger has confirmed that TSMC's N3B is in the picture, but no official source has disclosed their in-house manufacturing choice(s) for LNL chips. Wccftech believes that Lunar Lake will: "utilize the same P-Core (Lion Cove) and brand-new E-Core (Skymont) core architecture which are expected to be fabricated on the 20A node. But that might also be limited to the CPU tile. The GPU tile will be a significant upgrade over the Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake CPUs since Lunar Lake ditches Alchemist and goes for the next-gen graphics architecture codenamed "Battlemage" (AKA Xe2-LPG)." Late January whispers pointed to Intel and TSMC partnering up on a 2 nanometer process for the "Nova Lake" processor generation—perhaps a very distant prospect (2026).

Boring news! I really hoped we'd see performance leaks from engineering samples before March. If Arrow Lake does launch in 2024, I think it'll be delayed to Q4 at this rate.

Zen5 will have a field day!

 

[Dave2150]

Its really weird.... Intel are going all in on TSMC, and being very vocal about that, while at the same time Pat is talking up wanting to make Nvidia and AMD chips.

For context Nvidia and AMD also use TSMC, why would they, especially AMD use Intel's foundries while they don't even use their own foundies for their most advanced products? If they don't make their own products on their own foundies, are instead making them at TSMC, why would AMD move from TSMC to Intel?

Perhaps Intel just want to use their significant buying power to take a large % of available supply of TSMC wafers from AMD and other competition. The more wafers Intel buy, the less wafers there are for AMD and others. This may then force the competition to buy less advanced wafers from Intel's custom foundry's.

 

[Dave2150]

Nvidia could buy Intel with Jenson's pocket shrapnel.

Nvidia: $1.95 Tr and rising.
AMD: $312 Bn and rising.
Intel: $182 Bn and falling.

A couple of years ago AMD spent more than $50 Bn on buying two companies.
When it comes to buying power even AMD crush Intel.

Intel just want some of that dosh.

Intel can still buy capacity from TSMC that AMD could have otherwise bought, forcing AMD to have supply issues or use Intel foundry.

If this does happen, surely regulation agencies will get involved.

 

[Dave2150]

If Intel want to get in to a buying power war with AMD Intel would lose.

Seriously these arguments that Intel could bully AMD out of anything these days is daft, they have already tried with servers and lost.

AMD market cap now $330 Bn, up from $312 Bn 12 hours ago.

There's a finite capacity of chips for sale from TSMC though. Apple gets the most advanced and greatest quantity as they pay the most. The rest? Up for grabs from highest bidder.

Even if Intel only buy a few thousand wafers - this will mean less wafers for AMD.

I'm not an expert in terms of the exact dynamics of purchasing power of both Intel/AMD, though the metric below seems important:

Intel cash on Hand as of December 2023 : $25.03 B https://companiesmarketcap.com/intel/cash-on-hand/#:~:text=Cash on Hand as of December 2023 : $25.03 B
AMD cash on Hand as of December 2023 : $5.77 B https://companiesmarketcap.com/amd/cash-on-hand/#:~:text=Cash on Hand as of,accessible money a business has.

 

[Dave2150]

take it still ni leaked benchies amd is looking good with the 7800x3d good to see .

No leaked benchmarks of Arrow Lake so far - though expect it to be superior to 7800x3d. It's competition will be Zen5, which is also due out this year.

 

[Dave2150]

AMD Ryzen has multi threading and a larger cache though.

All that matters is performance at the end of the day, not who has the most cores, cache or highest frequency.

I still think it's a tall ask for Arrow Lake to beat Raptor Lake (or Raptor Lake refresh) in games - as frequency is king here and the new process will not be clocking at 6.2 Ghz.

That said, Arrow Lake will be a huge improvement in power efficiency for Intel, possibly matching or beating Zen5.

 

[Dave2150]

Intel Arrow Lake-H processor with 24 cores has reportedly been photographed​

Intel Arrow Lake-H processor with 24 cores has reportedly been photographed - VideoCardz.com

Intel Arrow Lake processor for laptops has been pictured The 24-core variant of the upcoming Core Ultra 200 processor series has been shared by Moore’s Law is Dead. Intel is preparing to distribute qualification samples of its Arrow Lake processors to its partners. Although there’s an...

videocardz.com

Very interested to see how this will perform in terms of overall performance, perf per watt and also thermal performance. Roll on leaks!

 

[Dave2150]

Was always hoping that Arrow lake would be on LGA1700 but alas! It's gonna be a difficult decision to swap to this or AMD when the time comes as i'll need to swap boards anyway.

Intel need more pins to achieve parity with AMD, as in being able to use 16x PCI-Ev5 lanes for GPU and 4x lanes for a gen5 SSD.

That said, Samsung (the market leader) seem to wait for Intel to be ready before they release a Pro series gen5 SSD, one that's actually faster than the 990 Pro gen4 drives of today. Bit of a shame, as AM5 has been ready to go for Samsung pro gen5 SSD's for a long time.

 

[Dave2150]

What can you do on a Gen 5 NVMe that you can't do on the Gen 4 NVMe?

If you need that type of I/O, I'd argue you are on the wrong platform completely

There are no "proper" Gen5 SSD's out (by proper I mean a Samsung Pro version) - so we don't yet know. I'd expect higher IOPS and higher transfer speeds at various queue depths.

990 Pro (Gen4) still has ~36MB/s random read, for single threaded tasks. This is often the bottleneck in windows. Though improvements to this obviously don't depend on the drive being gen5 - it's just how it works - Samsung give the new architecture/design the latest PCI-E gen.

 

[Dave2150]

Then how do you explain Intel Optaine drives for example from a 905P to a P5800X, as those drives will easily outperform these Gen 4/5 drives for random read and writes?

So I will ask the question again, what would a Gen5 drive bring to the table that a Gen 4 won't? As I can see it there is no real-world benefit to your average desktop user at the moment, heck we don't have many direct storage games yet.

Think you need to chill out, I'm not on trial here, you make it sound like I am

Personally, I enjoy the feeling of upgrading my boot SSD to one with greater overall performance. Last upgrade I did was from a 980Pro to a 990Pro (both Gen4 drives). There was a small, but noticeable difference in the responsiveness of my system, for my specific workflows.

I look forward to a similar, or larger jump, when a Samsung gen5 Pro SSD releases.

 

[Dave2150]

Intel Arrow Lake Now Core Ultra 200 : Everything Else We Know So Far​

Intel Arrow Lake Now Core Ultra 200 : Everything Else We Know So Far

Intel will release a major update to its processor line up this year with its the launch of its 15th Generation Arrow Lake processors under Core Ultra 200 branding

www.forbes.com

Nice summary of what we know so far

 

[Dave2150]

Intel LGA-1851 socket has been pictured, coming to Core Ultra 200 series later this year​

Intel LGA-1851 socket has been pictured, coming to Core Ultra 200 series later this year - VideoCardz.com

LGA-1851 pictured, launching for Meteor Lake-PS, coming to Arrow Lake-S later this year The LGA-1851 socket has been pictured up close for the first time. LGA-1851 socket, Source: ComputerBase Intel, alongside its partners, unveiled the latest LGA-1851 socket at the Embedded World 2024 event...

videocardz.com

 

[Dave2150]

Intels next generation of bendy cpus coming soon.

LGA1700 was a pretty terrible socket to be fair. Having to use contact frames to get decent temperatures is just pure fail. LGA-1851 doesn't bode well as it's even larger!

 

[Dave2150]

Am sure my Z790 motherboard has a CPU reinforced back plate

Mostly LGA1700 are reinforced with a metal back plate, that's not the issue.

It's just not flat enough, causing temperature hotspots and of course the bending issues we're seen on some boards.

 

[Dave2150]

Intel Arrow Lake CPUs might not arrive until 2025 – and that could be great news for AMD​

Intel Arrow Lake CPUs might not arrive until 2025 – and that could be great news for AMD

We’ve also caught a glimpse of an Arrow Lake laptop chip in a photo

www.techradar.com

Not surprised, Intel's first chiplet design for desktop CPU's can't be going smoothly. Zen 5 will further humiliate Intel 13th/14th gen offerings and will likely force Intel to massively cut prices to be competitive.

 

[Dave2150]

Cites MILD as source... tomorrow he'll probably claim they are going to be released in August.

We'd have seen leaks of z890 motherboards and engineering samples/benchmarks if Arrow Lake was launching Q2 or Q3 IMO. Q4 or next year seems much more likely.

 

[Dave2150]

2025 would be very odd given intel is shipping engineering samples already

We've got way more leaks and engineering samples of arrow lake than zen5 and yet arrow lake is now delayed according to MLID?

This is the same guy who Intel killed its GPU division, Intel would not make any more graphics cards and Battlemage would never exist. Yet Battlemage is real and we have engineering samples already

Post the desktop arrow lake engineering sample leaks/benchmarks please, I've not seen any

 

[Dave2150]

Chinese vendor appears to be selling Arrow Lake-S engineering samples for $14​

Chinese vendor appears to be selling Arrow Lake-S engineering samples for $14

Even if they are real, there are no motherboards with compatible sockets on the market.

www.tomshardware.com

If LGA-1851 motherboards were available, I'd buy a ES CPU for $14 and give it a spin

 

[Dave2150]

Details of Arrow Lake model numbers

Intel Core Ultra 5 240F "Arrow Lake-S" CPU to use either 8+16 or 6+8 core tiles - VideoCardz.com

Core Ultra 5 240F, expected to use two versions of the Arrow Lake-S silicon A new rumor suggests Intel will continue its ‘tradition’ to mix silicon dies within the mid-range CPU segment. The next-gen Arrow Lake-S series is on track to debut on the desktop platform this year, introducing the...

videocardz.com

"Core Ultra 9 290k" - sounds like a toaster Lets hope "290k" is not the PL2 rating

 

[Dave2150]

First AVX512, now HT too?

Guess this is one way to get E and P cores closer to each other. Any rumours of more hardware schedulers - maybe able move threads to any core at will?

That is very strange. Wonder if it makes various side-channel attacks less likely?

I though SMT/HT was supposed to be such a good and cheap way to keep the pipelines busy?

I think the performance impact or lack of windows scheduler support are a big reason Arrow Lake is so delayed. It may not release until Q4, or even 2025!