Soldato
i`d put surtees higher, only guy to be world champ in bikes n F1 and i dont think anyone will ever beat that
Interlagos - Brazilian Grand Prix 2009 - Race 16/17
- Thread starter Glaucus
- Start date
Somthing has come of it.
I believe Hamilton is the has scored more points than any other driver in the 2nd half of the season. This is McLaren/Hamilton are capable of. Once Alonso arrives at Ferrari, he should be able to match Hamilton.
If those 2 drivers are allowed to do their thing, then the rest of the field will be fighting for 3rd place.
I must say though, that after this year, its too early to say if BrawnGP will provide their drivers a fast car, enough to compete against Hamilton/Alonso. I doubt it, but you never know.
Hamilton fought with Alonso, right from the get go and matched Alonso on points, during a period when Alonso really was on top form and was the reigning world champion. The equivalent would be for D.Hill to match Senna on points, in 1994. This would never have happened (had Senna not died).
Its one thing being given the best car and its another to get the maximum out of it and winning (or nearly) winning the title.
By my reckoning over the last 3 years, Hamilton is the top points scorer. This shows amazing consistency (even though he has crashed stupidly, a fair few times).
Hamilton really is "all that" and I'm sure that as long as he stays healthy, he will go onto break at a least few of MS's records. I cannot say that about any other driver currently in F1 (including Alonso).
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Soldato
I wouldn't put them in any order, bit a pointless exercise really.
Hamilton has buckets of talent, Button has come of out his shell. If they both have similar cars next year, there is the potential for some great racing for 4 more more equal teams and two britons fighting it out.
They both have different driving styles but both have got the results given the right car (and equally otherwise). Either way, I hope to enjoy it and not get all angsty about who is better than who becasue unless they actually drive identical cars side by side, nobody could call it and it's poinless speculating becasue nobody would ever agree anyway.
/me puts cushion on his fence.
Hamilton has buckets of talent, Button has come of out his shell. If they both have similar cars next year, there is the potential for some great racing for 4 more more equal teams and two britons fighting it out.
They both have different driving styles but both have got the results given the right car (and equally otherwise). Either way, I hope to enjoy it and not get all angsty about who is better than who becasue unless they actually drive identical cars side by side, nobody could call it and it's poinless speculating becasue nobody would ever agree anyway.
/me puts cushion on his fence.
Soldato
The FW18 was by far the best car the year when Hill won his championship and the single race he won in the Jordan was shamefully a pure fluke of circumstance, not to mention that R.Schumacher should've actually won the race. He did nothing else of significance in either a Jordan or Arrows and probably didnt even finish 50% of those drives (be that his fault of the cars).
Not really no, because both Hill and Button had the best car when they won as well. Really doubt Hill or Button could've done what Hamilton did in their first and second seasons regardless of car.
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I really don't think it is because of the regulations. it's more the fact it was such a large change, all teams had to start again and the high financed teams have not had the time to get the last few percent out of the car. Like they do if the rules stay fairly constant. It's also helped by the fact the rules are turning it into a single series sport. With very little room for innovation.
Regardless of how good the car was when Hill won the title, again like Jenson both actually had to fight team mates to win the title, unlike just about every other driver thats won it inbetween those two.
It would also be a brave man to say that Button won this year because he was in the fastest car. There were races this year when the brawn was far from the fastest. I cannot remember a season when prior to qfy no one has really had an idea which car would be the fastest. Jenson also took some wins when clearly the Red Bull was the fastest car and got baulked or made a mistake.
The first year I can remember where one weekend it looked like the Toyota was fast, then brawn, then redbull, then macca, then ferrari and even a force india.
The races might not have been the best but for unpredictability on a saturday morning there has been no season better in recent memory.
Soldato
Ta for that
Such a modest, humble guy; confidence without arrogance, and with a bit of a sense of humour.
Bonus points for attributing his success to fellow humans, not higher powers.
We should be proud that we've got a World Champion like Jenson.
There is nothing wrong with a bit of arrogance.
If you are the best.
And you know you are the best.
And all your peers acknowledge you are the best, then its not arrogance, it is merely fact.
I prefer drivers who have genuine class (like Hamilton, Senna, Alonso, MS, etc), who go on and repeatedly win races/titles. At this point, Button may never win another race ever again. With Hamilton and Alonso, you KNOW that providing they stay healthy, they will win plenty more races.
But anyway, Button should be allowed to celebrate his achievement this year. He drove well during the first half of the season, by anyone's standards, so well done.
Sorry - Hamilton is NOT Senna....yet
Thats the big failing of your argument imo
the only way we can know that for sure if for Hamilton to be partnered by a decent driver for several years in a row, and that doesnt look like happening.
Maybe that team would be the Ferrari of the 2010 onwards era just like the Marenello team where for majority of MS's years there.
Its also quite apparant that Hamilton is part of the McLaren family more than most drivers before in F1 - very few come in and have the team completely revolving around them, imo he isnt just a salaried No1 driver (even compared to Alonso at Ferrari) and that makes a difference imo
right now - it is 60-70% about the car, and nothing else, who ever you are you cant do anything with a **** car, so it cant be regardless of the car at all.
15 years ago was a completely different set of regulations - who knows what Damon could do now, or what Hamilton or JB could do with the cars of 94/95/96
As above there is a huge difference between being a salaried No 1 driver and being Hamilton in McLaren when he arrived (esp because RDennis was still in the racing team) or even this year
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Sorry - Hamilton is NOT Senna....yet
Thats the big failing of your argument imo
I was saying that Alonso was analagous to Senna (both multiple world champions at the top of their game), where Hamilton would be analalogous to D.Hill.
D.Hill in 1994, was getting blown away by Senna. Hamilton wasnt getting blown away in 2007.
There is nothing wrong with this strategy (ie. acknolwedge No.1 and No.2 drivers). Once Ferrari used it so successfully for many years, it was only logical that other teams would have to follow suit (Renault used the strategy to claim 2 World Titles and now McLaren are using the same strategy). It is absolutely the right direction to go in, IF winning titles is your aim.
They might not look majour, but simple no refuelling rule. Throws everything out.
Caporegime
Are you barking?
The Brawn was a bigger advantage this season than any car has been since, probably, the 2004 Ferrari. Through the first half of the season, practically every race was Brawn's to lose; even in the second half it remained one of the better cars. Button was aided further by the fact that no single team was able to consistently claim the spot for second best car on the grid, spreading the points around whilst Button languished at the front.
Senna was completely awesome - who can say whether he wouldnt have blown away Hamilton in the same car
Just because another multi-world championship was harried into submission - it has no reference at all to how Senna would have coped.
Thats not the point I was making
I was trying to suggest that anyone so ingratiated in the team has more "power" within it than a standard No1 driver
More technical sway to how they should design the car, braking compunds, the style of driving required to get the best out of it etc etc
Im not saying its the wrong way to go at all - but its pretty unfair to compare to someone else in another team when they arent given the same internal power
Monaco was the last time the Brawn was easily the fastest, and even then there where a few fly away races where they where 2nd to Red Bull and only tactics etc got them ahead (not incl the early Vettel win)
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Clearly it's you that's barking. Either that or you don't look deep enough into the races. Even in the 6 races Jenson won from 7 his car was not always the faster car. More than once the Red Bulls were hampered by being caught behind a KERS car or a toyota.
After that 6th win to call the Brawn the fastest car after that in all but one or two races is laughable at best, clearly seen by the amount of fuel the Brawns carried in Qfy and race pace on the day.
Yes it's an advantage that Hamilton, Kimi stopped the 2nd best team (Red Bull) from scoring consistently but thats nothing to do with the Brawn being the fastest car. I think based on QFY and fuel loads and race pace you would be hard pushed to say the Brawn was the fastest car in half the races this year.
That Vettel and Red Bull dropped the ball too often is not an indication that the Brawn has been dominant.
Personally, I don't see this as being major. The fuel tank size will increase, so I presume the cars will be slightly wider, but other than that, the 2010 cars will be evolutionary over their 2009 counterparts. This will mean that if your 2009 car was quick, then so will your 2010 car.
2008->2009 was revolutionary, which allows lesser teams to steal a march on the big boys. Now that the 2009 season is coming to an end, it would appear that the big boys have caught up and the status quo has been rebalanced.
Soldato
Further discussion down this route is inevitably going to lead to quibbling over semantics, isn't it? Might as well nip it in the bud
I suspect that you think I'm placing too much import on personality over skill, but actually I agree with you - I also prefer the sublime and superior Sennas, Alonsos, Capellis* and Schumachers [well, one Schumacher
] of this world. I was simply commenting that it's kinda neat that Jenson has the personality he has, but I'm under no delusion that he's up there with the greats yet.Now I've done it: publicly agreeing with sunama
* Just seeing if anybody is actually going to read this