Interlagos - Brazilian Grand Prix 2009 - Race 16/17

[Jono8]

Are you barking?

The Brawn was a bigger advantage this season than any car has been since, probably, the 2004 Ferrari. Through the first half of the season, practically every race was Brawn's to lose; even in the second half it remained one of the better cars. Button was aided further by the fact that no single team was able to consistently claim the spot for second best car on the grid, spreading the points around whilst Button languished at the front.

totally agree.

This is why Hamilton had a much harder job. 2007 saw him with rivals in both ferrari's and his own team mate Alonso. Same with 2009 except Massa ran him closer that time around. He had close competetive rivals from the start all the way through the season.

Button on the other hand had a pretty much free ride to the chequered flag for the first half of 2009.... All anyone could gather from the first 7 or so races was that Button was better than Barrichello.

 

[sunama]

I was trying to suggest that anyone so ingratiated in the team has more "power" within it than a standard No1 driver

More technical sway to how they should design the car, braking compunds, the style of driving required to get the best out of it etc etc

Im not saying its the wrong way to go at all - but its pretty unfair to compare to someone else in another team when they arent given the same internal power

It is totally fair.

If you are top line driver, you have to project yourself onto the team and make your case. You have to manouvre yourself into a position where the team have absolute faith in your ability and are prepared to arrange the team around you. MS did this marvelously. Alonso also did this at Renault and now Hamilton is doing this at McLaren.

Note that not all drivers are capable of exerting themselves onto a team like those 3 drivers mentioned above. The reason being: not all drivers are as good as those mentioned above.

If Button wants to win another world title, he can drop the nice guy/playboy/relaxed image and have it written into his contract that he wants preferential treatment next year. He will almost certainly get it, even if it is only a verbal agreement.

Winning the title this year was a good move, as far as his bargaining power goes. R.Brawn will know this, having worked with MS to such devastating effect and he will know that the best way to win the title is to focus all attention on a single (top) driver. If Button plays his cards right and is prepared to focus on driving/winning (and not on holidays and triathlons), then R.Brawn will definitely take notice.

Its very similar to some of us who work for a company. If we show we are good at our jobs, then at first, we will be given some of the more difficult tasks to do. We may even get promoted. If we show we can do those difficult tasks, then the employee can demand that he get preferential treatment and be issued with the more lucrative tasks/contracts. And your employers will oblige, as you have shown that you have the ability.

Its quite possible though, that R.Brawn doesnt have the same confidence in Button, as he did with MS. In fact, this is very likely.

So in summary, it is absolutely Button's fault that he is not being given the same preferential treatment that Hamilton and Alonso will be enjoying next year.

 

[Burned_Alive]

right now - it is 60-70% about the car, and nothing else, who ever you are you cant do anything with a **** car, so it cant be regardless of the car at all.

I agree that a lot of it is to do with the car these days, but my roundabout point was that imo Hamilton is more of a raw talent than either Hill or Button ever was.

It would also be a brave man to say that Button won this year because he was in the fastest car. There were races this year when the brawn was far from the fastest. I cannot remember a season when prior to qfy no one has really had an idea which car would be the fastest. Jenson also took some wins when clearly the Red Bull was the fastest car and got baulked or made a mistake.

I partly agree and I partly dont. Whilst the Red Bull may have been up there and faster at times, it lacked the reliability of the Brawn (drawing a direct comparison) through the season, which was partly it's downfall. I think you could also argue that the team and car are part and parcel, so by saying Red Bull dropped the ball, this is part of the car not being 'up there', despite the ability of the chassis, if you see what I mean.

 

[sunama]

I suspect that you think I'm placing too much import on personality over skill, but actually I agree with you - I also prefer the sublime and superior Sennas, Alonsos, Capellis* and Schumachers [well, one Schumacher ] of this world. I was simply commenting that it's kinda neat that Jenson has the personality he has, but I'm under no delusion that he's up there with the greats yet.

Now I've done it: publicly agreeing with sunama


* Just seeing if anybody is actually going to read this

Hey, I took your advice in the "business website/flash design" thread, so now you must repay the favour in this thread.

I like the way you put it though: "...the sublime and superior ...".

Ever since Mansell left F1, I've been waiting for a Brit with "sublime and superior" skill. D.Hill, J.Button, A.Davison simply didn't cut it. In general, when going up against the best, they had a tendency to get blown away. When Hamilton arrived on the scene - to see him going toe-to-toe with the reigning World Champion and best driver in F1, was mind-blowing and it was as if my prayers had been answered.

I guess I just want to back a British driver who can beat ALL and take on the best and not be classed as the underdog.

[I can't help feel that if McLaren, Ferrari or Renault had got their act together from the get go, Button wouldn't be this year's WDC. The lack of competition has helped him greatly, with all the past champions in poor cars. Button only had to beat M.Webber, S.Vettel and R.Barrichello, who with all due respect are not in the same category as Hamilton/Alonso].

 

[Glaucus]

Personally, I don't see this as being major. The fuel tank size will increase, so I presume the cars will be slightly wider, but other than that, the 2010 cars will be evolutionary over their 2009 counterparts. This will mean that if your 2009 car was quick, then so will your 2010 car.

Breaks, weight, weight distribution, tyres. Aero dynamics if any widths or heights need changing. And that's from one rule change. And no it doesn't. A top car this year, might not work with an extra 100kilos or what ever it is of fuel. The breaks might disintegrate and the tyres might degrade in 10 laps from the extra weight.

 

[dannyjo22]

I partly agree and I partly dont. Whilst the Red Bull may have been up there and faster at times, it lacked the reliability of the Brawn (drawing a direct comparison) through the season, which was partly it's downfall. I think you could also argue that the team and car are part and parcel, so by saying Red Bull dropped the ball, this is part of the car not being 'up there', despite the ability of the chassis, if you see what I mean.

I'm talking about the first 7 races, red bull should have taken wins from Button. In times at qfy they were the faster car but Brawn out thought them with strategy. Also Vettel ran wide and Button went through in one of the races.

A couple of those early races Button should not have won, If you watch them again you will see what I mean. The Red Bulls got themselves tangled up with other cars when they had race winning pace.

Sunama I don't think you could be more wrong saying next year won't make much difference to the grid. Even heavy these cars are designed to take half a race of fuel. Some cars just won't work with those fuel levels, others flew on lower levels. I don't think you can double the fuel weight or even triple the amount of fuel to how some teams liked to run and then expect to maintain the status quo.

Some drivers will not like being that heavy and not being able to maintain tyres for so much of the race. Hamilton clearly eats rears, the extra weight and pitstop would clearly do him no favours. Alonso too likes to make make multiple corrections. Thats speed works when you have the luxuary of a light nimble car, not when the cars weight so much more. MS too would not have liked to race with all that fuel.

That extra weight could help teams that struggled to get tyre temp and it could destroy the tyres on a car that was currently working well.

Who knows for sure but I doubt that it's just a small rule change that will allow the grid to stay the same.

 

[FrankJH]

snip.

or to put it another way....

MS persuaded Ferrari to buy 1/2 of the Renault design / strategy team at the time in the year he left, who therefore knew exactly how to build the car to how he wanted it (and as Ferrari where spending so much money anyway - its stupid NOT to base it around him in the 1st place)

Alonso had the support of his personal manager as the team manager so thats kind of unsurprising if you ask me - and I have no idea which way it will go in regards to Ferrari when he gets there

Hamilton was GIVEN the power rather than earning it (maybe due to how much RD had spent on structuring his career before F1), and to my mind the 2007 car definitely suited his style to start with more than Alonso anyway - and its laughable to suggest that was a design accident

Its also pretty ridiculous to suggest that any other time before next year JB would have had a remote chance of requesting and getting the outright No1 (the team was built around JV, so JB had to dominate him thoroghly to start with - even in a terrible car, and only in one year since that time has the BAR / Honda been anywhere near 1/2 decent)

Even over last winter its stupid to ask a brand new team, who has just had to cut (or about to) 300 + jobs, barely made it to Melbourne that he should be automatically No 1 (maybe if they had gone with Bruno Senna instead , JB would have been), but with a more experienced person in the other cockpit it would never happen - too much risk for the team


I also think you are being pretty dense in regards to this triathlon business you keep on going on about. He is keeping incredibly fit during the season by doing them - and its probably a benefit to the whole team that he doesnt do exactly the same exercises /regime all the time. IF it was a detriment to the team I would bet that Ross would have told him to cut it out before now, even before he was the boss of the team!!

I agree that a lot of it is to do with the car these days, but my roundabout point was that imo Hamilton is more of a raw talent than either Hill or Button ever was.
.

Well we will never know, but personally dont agree. If you had put Jenson in the 2000 McLaren , he would have given Hakkenen a run for his money imo (DC deserved the drive without doubt, but I dont believe JB would have done much worse if at all)

 

[philjohn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2009/10/the_remarkable_story_of_brawn.html

"The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car," says my source. "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."

goes on to explain how this hampered them later in the season with the types of upgrades they could bring in (i.e. nothing like the complete redesign weight distribution wise that McLaren introduced).

 

[Glaucus]

anyone know how many championships Ross brawn has been apart of? He certainly seems to make a massive difference. Can't wait to see what they do next year without the design problems of switching engines.

 

[Burned_Alive]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2009/10/the_remarkable_story_of_brawn.html





goes on to explain how this hampered them later in the season with the types of upgrades they could bring in (i.e. nothing like the complete redesign weight distribution wise that McLaren introduced).

I thought that was well known?
From what I remember the engine also sits higher than it would do if the car had been built from scratch with the mercedes unit in mind.

 

[FrankJH]

anyone know how many championships Ross brawn has been apart of? He certainly seems to make a massive difference. Can't wait to see what they do next year without the design problems of switching engines.

I seem to recall it being mentioned as 8 in the last couple of days (including Brawn)

2 for Benetton
5 for Ferrari
(all of MS's, and he "only" won 7 didnt he / Brawn didnt miss the last one at Ferrari did he for gardening leave?)

I partly agree and I partly dont. Whilst the Red Bull may have been up there and faster at times, it lacked the reliability of the Brawn (drawing a direct comparison) through the season, which was partly it's downfall. I think you could also argue that the team and car are part and parcel, so by saying Red Bull dropped the ball, this is part of the car not being 'up there', despite the ability of the chassis, if you see what I mean.

Undoubtedly Newey is one of the best aero people in the business (he has had a couple of duffs in the past admittedly, but usually they are pretty ***hot)

 

[Burned_Alive]

anyone know how many championships Ross brawn has been apart of? He certainly seems to make a massive difference. Can't wait to see what they do next year without the design problems of switching engines.

2 drivers and 1 constructors with benetton
5 drivers and 6 constructors with ferrari

 

[nate247]

Ross Brawn is quite simply an even bigger genius than I thought he was having read the above. Great links guys and a good read...

Undoubtedly Newey is one of the best aero people in the business (he has had a couple of duffs in the past admittedly, but usually they are pretty ***hot)

Personally I thought his best days were behind him after his couple of world title winning cars with Hakkinen / McLaren, but on this years evidence for Red Bull there is allways that chance he could produce something special. I am really looking forward to next season now though as McLaren should be competitive, Brawn, Ferrari & Redbull too... So many talented drivers will be in good cars too. Should be one to remember I reckon..!

 

[sunama]

Sunama I don't think you could be more wrong saying next year won't make much difference to the grid. Even heavy these cars are designed to take half a race of fuel. Some cars just won't work with those fuel levels, others flew on lower levels. I don't think you can double the fuel weight or even triple the amount of fuel to how some teams liked to run and then expect to maintain the status quo.

We shall just have to wait and see. The status quo can be upset in 1 year. But for it to happen 2 years in a row, in the last few decades, this unprecedented, so if McLaren and Ferrari (they are now the top dogs in F1) don't produce a race winning car from the get go, this would be very unusual.

Some drivers will not like being that heavy and not being able to maintain tyres for so much of the race. Hamilton clearly eats rears, the extra weight and pitstop would clearly do him no favours. Alonso too likes to make make multiple corrections. Thats speed works when you have the luxuary of a light nimble car, not when the cars weight so much more.

Bear in mind that if you are top driver, you can adapt. I know that Button struggles to do this, but I would expect Alonso and Hamilton to make the necessary adjustments. If Hamilton (in particular), is struggling to make his tyres last, he will simply work in an extra pit stop into the strategy and rely on brute speed to win races. Luckily for McLaren/Hamilton, this is an option.

MS too would not have liked to race with all that fuel.

I'm not sure if this is true. But, like I said, if you are top driver, you will make the adjustments to be fast, no matter what the specs of the car. [Another reason, why I feel Button cannot be classed as a top line driver].

For the record, there was no refuelling in 1992 or 1993.
In 1992, MS finished 3rd behind the all-conquering Williams cars.
In 1993, MS finshed 4th, behind th all-conquering Williams cars and Senna (who I feel, had his best season in F1 that year).
In 1994, re-fuelling was introduced, but more importantly, MS was a more complete driver and Bennetton produced a championship winning car, which MS used to ruthless effect. Even the FIA who banned him for 3 races and deducted 10 points (for his Spa win), couldnt stop him from winning the title.

 

[Slam62]

Hey, I took your advice in the "business website/flash design" thread, so now you must repay the favour in this thread.

I like the way you put it though: "...the sublime and superior ...".

Ever since Mansell left F1, I've been waiting for a Brit with "sublime and

[I can't help feel that if McLaren, Ferrari or Renault had got their act together from the get go, Button wouldn't be this year's WDC. The lack of competition has helped him greatly, with all the past champions in poor cars. Button only had to beat M.Webber, S.Vettel and R.Barrichello, who with all due respect are not in the same category as Hamilton/Alonso].

Mansell was never sublime and superior apart from his championship year when he had a huge car advantage.

F1 is all about ifs, Vettel ultimately lost the championship by making a couple of mistakes. Jenson didn't make any, alright he wasn't superquick all the time, but if you don't finnish you don't get any points.

 

[Slam62]

wasn't 1994 the year senna killed himself trying too hard in a less than perfect car.

or was it the year Schumacher had to ram Hill after smashing the wall.

or was that the year bentton took out the fuel filter leading to a huge pit fire and also used banned traction control or was that another year.

 

[sunama]

Even over last winter its stupid to ask a brand new team, who has just had to cut (or about to) 300 + jobs, barely made it to Melbourne that he should be automatically No 1 (maybe if they had gone with Bruno Senna instead , JB would have been), but with a more experienced person in the other cockpit it would never happen - too much risk for the team

Button has been in F1 for quite a while now. A top line driver, with a strong personality, who can stamp himself onto a team, doesnt take this long to get to a stage where he can get outright No.1 status.

I've never suggested that he should've got No.1 status last year or earlier, simply because he did nothing of note. He won a single race. Based on that, he cannot ask for No.1 status. The problem here was his lifestyle. No boss would take him seriously (in the same way that you MS, Hamilton or Alonso would be taken seriously).

Now, he is world champ, he has the opportunity to have the team based around him. If he is up to the challenge, then he can demand No.1 status. Something tells me though, he isn't upto the challenge or the responsibility of leading the team and expected to get 70% of the team's points.

I also think you are being pretty dense in regards to this triathlon business you keep on going on about. He is keeping incredibly fit during the season by doing them - and its probably a benefit to the whole team that he doesnt do exactly the same exercises /regime all the time. IF it was a detriment to the team I would bet that Ross would have told him to cut it out before now, even before he was the boss of the team!!

Just because you are fit, it doesnt mean that you will be fast. Button was competing in triathlons in the middle of the season. Yet, he was being outscored on the track by old man Barrichello. I don't need to see any more evidence.

Well we will never know, but personally dont agree. If you had put Jenson in the 2000 McLaren , he would have given Hakkenen a run for his money imo (DC deserved the drive without doubt, but I dont believe JB would have done much worse if at all)

If Button believed in his own ability, he would've moved to the best car. Much like Senna believed in his ability, he demanded that he be in the best car all the time. He would impose himself onto a team and accept the responsibility that came with being outright No.1.

In a similar way, if I have supreme confidence in my ability, I will aggressively chase promotion or better jobs. If I am genuinely good, then I will get those jobs. On the other hand, if I lack ambition or don't have belief in my ability, I will happily stay in my current job, which isnt great, and be content.

Button simply doesnt have that much belief. It may also be a lack of ambition. But you would need to ask him about his motivations for not moving to a top team such as McLaren or Ferrari. Obviously, in 2009/10 this is a mute point, because BrawnGP had one of the best cars on the grid.

 

[sunama]

wasn't 1994 the year senna killed himself trying too hard in a less than perfect car.

or was it the year Schumacher had to ram Hill after smashing the wall.

or was that the year bentton took out the fuel filter leading to a huge pit fire and also used banned traction control or was that another year.

Indeed. But MS still won the title, despite being banned for 3 races and having 10 points deducted.

 

[sunama]

Mansell was never sublime and superior apart from his championship year when he had a huge car advantage.

In my mind, Mansell was someone who was able to beat Prost and Senna. To me, he was in their league (though Prost and Senna were slightly better). Senna, Prost and Piquet were the top drivers, along with Mansell in the mid 80s to early 90s.

Mansell, definitely had sublime skill.

 

[Dr Who]

Mansell was never sublime and superior apart from his championship year when he had a huge car advantage.

Antifanboi stuff...

Like when Frank Williams refused to tell Mansell to slow down So Piquet could win?

We are talking here about a man, who beat his teams No1 driver, that man being one of the greats, Nelson Piquet, 20 seconds deficit, 20 laps, car running out of fuel on the rolling down lap..

A man that was involved in the closest finish ever of a grand prix (spain vs Senna), A man that lost a championship on the final race of the year in spectacular circumstances, had that not happened, he would have had 2 world championships in F1 as well as the following year in Indy, the only driver in History to simultaneously hold F1 and Indy Car championships.

All from a guy that nearly died doing what he loved, broke his back in F3, Broke his Neck in FF, six months imobilised, almost quadriplegic and told he was never going to be able to race again...

Nigel Mansell is every bit as good a racer as any british driver has been!

Sure sit back and armchair critic him, but the guy was a brilliant driver, he is just a crap people person!