Is the snake oil slowly retreating from the Hi-Fi industry?

I will never believe that a mains cable can make any difference at all, it literally connects to miles of electrical cable that goes all the way back to the power station, the last meter or 2 of gold plates pixie dust can't possibly make a difference. Source I tried with an open mind.

Speaker cables might possibly make a very small difference, these are measurable in the capacitance, inductance and resistance of the cable and they only carry the signal a small distance from your amps to the speakers, but obviously the cable inside your speakers needs to match. Though I found on my Hypex amps they didn't seem very fussy, any old OFC will do, I'm currently running some cheap QED stuff, I have some Chord Epic and I tried it, I couldn't hear any difference.

The speakers and the room acoustics will always make the biggest most noticeable difference, then the amp, then source electronics.
 
I will never believe that a mains cable can make any difference at all, it literally connects to miles of electrical cable that goes all the way back to the power station, the last meter or 2 of gold plates pixie dust can't possibly make a difference. Source I tried with an open mind.

Speaker cables might possibly make a very small difference, these are measurable in the capacitance, inductance and resistance of the cable and they only carry the signal a small distance from your amps to the speakers, but obviously the cable inside your speakers needs to match. Though I found on my Hypex amps they didn't seem very fussy, any old OFC will do, I'm currently running some cheap QED stuff, I have some Chord Epic and I tried it, I couldn't hear any difference.

The speakers and the room acoustics will always make the biggest most noticeable difference, then the amp, then source electronics.
Speakers cables can make a massive difference up to a point. Pure copper against Copper coating is very noticeable.

As for the power cables it can make a difference if you have a poor power source or poor cable. Along with anything that has a built in stabilizer will stop the little pops and crackles from mini power spikes or drops. I don't see how a new cable can clean up an already clean power source if the old cable itself is decent. Having say a UPS gives a clean constant stable power source cutting down on interference. I have had cheap rubbish power cables cause interference. Swamping in a decent cable cleaned everything up but the replacement wasn't anything special just a decent power cable not one of those stupid £100+ ones.

While most of it is branding and snake oil power cables and speaker cables do matter up to a point. Just avoid the cheap stuff and sometimes pay a little extra for quality.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B019545M6S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 as an example is noticeable better then the cheap copper coating cable most speakers come with. Yet its only a little more pricey. There is no need for the really expensive stuff.
 
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No you've got my answer completely wrong. You said you got a thicker cable (i assume the amp 'kettle lead'). I don't see how that can improve anything.
Yes it was a thicker more substantial cable. My answer is the same as last time. It did change the sound of my system. It showered me with a warm rich presentation. To me it’s all about listening and not looking.
You should be able to see how though, shouldn’t you? You would have thunked that, you guys are the ones who are able to test this and tell me otherwise?

As to the extension that shouldn't matter either unless as I said you've got a dodgy connection (which can happen at any price range) .
I looked at the 5 Gang extension again . Plugged it in and used every socket. Nope, it’s still not broken. What a bummer!!


I find it interesting that with audio nobody ever does a double blind rest to 'prove'these claims of how much better it sounds when using unicorn hair for speaker cable. The way I see it, is that there's a whole market catering for rich idiots like footballers that have so much money they will pay a crazy price for anything.
I just tested it again and would you believe it, it sounded totally different!!!! The numbers seem perfectly fine and within the parameters. How have you been testing this? I’d love for you to explain to me in laymans terms what your findings are. I’m really interested.
Now what I find interesting is that most of the number nerds probably don’t have enough hi fi of their own to do any of this testing to ‘prove what they are saying’ . You would have thought by now that would have happened wouldn’t you?
Not one number or piece of scientific evidence has been put forward has it. That is a shame.

I have nothing to prove. I can only give you what I have heard. Unfortunately It’s you lot that have to disprove it isn’t it? Chop chop old bean.. show me those numbers!!
If you read my post above I have done the testing and weirdly enough they do sound different.
I shall endeavour to keep putting into the conversation though. It’s a labour of love.
On a side note. What would happen if you wired in a 10.8 kw shower into a normal ring main and had a shower?
Would it be the best shower You have had or would it somehow not quite be at its best. If only there was another way to make it sing?
 
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I have to wonder if this guy works for the company selling this rubbish

That power has been delivered over potentially as much as hundreds of miles through multiple transformers over many circuits, then finally through your local transformer over some shared cables with your neighbouring properties, and then finally split to your drop wire. This is then fed into your generic consumer unit, looped through an RCD, looped to the MCB for that circuit and then finally run through some generic T&E in the walls of your house through potentially many other sockets and therefore connections using generic socket screw terminals. Your power cable is then finally connected through friction contact with a generic socket connected to miles and miles and hundreds of junctions along generic cable to the source at multiple different voltages and the shared lines as mentioned.

A thicker power cable from the wall outlet to the amp making a difference, pull the other one :p
 
I have to wonder if this guy works for the company selling this rubbish

That power has been delivered over potentially as much as hundreds of miles through multiple transformers over many circuits, then finally through your local transformer over some shared cables with your neighbouring properties, and then finally split to your drop wire. This is then fed into your generic consumer unit, looped through an RCD, looped to the MCB for that circuit and then finally run through some generic T&E in the walls of your house through potentially many other sockets and therefore connections using generic socket screw terminals. Your power cable is then finally connected through friction contact with a generic socket connected to miles and miles and hundreds of junctions along generic cable to the source at multiple different voltages and the shared lines as mentioned.

A thicker power cable from the wall outlet to the amp making a difference, pull the other one :p

A thicker cable say 10mm connected to the 10.8kw shower..... holy cow! That just might Make it work to its fullest capabilities batman........I guess that went above your head didn’t it?
Seems you one of those guys who likes says a lot of nothing? No offence. Just have a look at your comment for starters.
So how much testing have you done to back up your, well, back up your hot air basically. You haven’t said anything of note have you?
Do you even own a hifI? Have you ever changed part of that hifi ? I’ll beat the answer is no. Yet you some how have an opinion on the subject.
I have been posting to educate people like you on what it’s like to have a decent hifi and the pitfalls of the snake oil,industry.All of which I only know too well. Where I have putting into the conversation, instead of taking out....
Don’t be that guy, you know, the one who’s neighbour pulls up in a new black Ferrari. The one who phones his mate Trevor up and tells him about the Ferrari but tells him that if it were him he wouldn’t have had it in black.....( insert annoying nasally voice).
It is a fun hobby, even up to the point where people try and shame you for spending money on a dac worth 24k. You know the ones I mean, don’t you.
 
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This is madness, anyone with a basic understanding of power systems can see that this is madness. I only replied because it is so ridiculous that you simply must be trolling and laughing as much as the rest of us, I’ll treat this as such and humour you.

Just think for a minute about that power cable and how minute it is in the journey of that power as I laid out. The cable doesn’t even make it out of the immediate room :p
 
Jez it’s not madness mate, it really isn’t. Why do you think I gave you the shower analogy? It simply wouldn’t work on a normal 6mm ring main would it?
Look I’m not technically minded, I can back that up with my lack of knowledge. But the shower needed a thicker cable for it to work to its fullest potential so that’s how I put it across. Technical limit reached.
I can swear on all that’s good , what I said is true. No bs no hocus pocus. Certainly no commission pal. Just plain observations. Why does it work . How the **** do I know,lol.
You gotta try it at least.

You want madness. This is madness....

https://www.analogueseduction.net/mains-cables/nordost-odin-2-mains-cable.html
Have a look how much the 5m costs......
 
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Jez it’s not madness mate, it really isn’t. Why do you think I gave you the shower analogy? It simply wouldn’t work on a normal 6mm ring main would it?
Look I’m not technically minded, I can back that up with my lack of knowledge. But the shower needed a thicker cable for it to work to its fullest potential so that’s how I put it across. Technical limit reached.
I can swear on all that’s good , what I said is true. No bs no hocus pocus. Certainly no commission pal. Just plain observations. Why does it work . How the **** do I know,lol.
You gotta try it at least.

You want madness. This is madness....

https://www.analogueseduction.net/mains-cables/nordost-odin-2-mains-cable.html
Have a look how much the 5m costs......
Explain why it wouldn't work. I'm interested to know why you think it wouldn't. What size fuse did you have in the cord, as I bet it's not a 13 amp, probably just a 5 in which case the app won't be pulling much anyway. With cables they either work or don't work, of you pulled to much current it would still work, up-to the point it melts the cable. Do you not think that maybe, just maybe when you are the only one in this thread saying it makes a difference when everybody else is disagreeing think that you are wrong?
 
Explain why it wouldn't work. I'm interested to know why you think it wouldn't. What size fuse did you have in the cord, as I bet it's not a 13 amp, probably just a 5 in which case the app won't be pulling much anyway. With cables they either work or don't work, of you pulled to much current it would still work, up-to the point it melts the cable. Do you not think that maybe, just maybe when you are the only one in this thread saying it makes a difference when everybody else is disagreeing think that you are wrong?
A 5 amp fuse to an amp? Seems you have the technical knowledge of a potato chap. I mean come on, ‘with cables they either work or they don’t work’ . Past your bedtime muffin.
At least say something of worth, substantiate your findings, back up your muddled diatribe.

This is what my snake oil cable is feeding....

https://youtu.be/m4dI9AgPuLc
 
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A 5 amp fuse to an amp? Seems you have the technical knowledge of a potato chap. I mean come on, ‘with cables they either work or they don’t work’ . Past your bedtime muffin.
At least say something of worth, substantiate your findings, back up your muddled diatribe.

This is what my snake oil cable is feeding....

https://youtu.be/m4dI9AgPuLc
Out of curiosity, do you think a £500+ USB cable improves sound quality over a £5 one?
 
A thicker cable say 10mm connected to the 10.8kw shower..... holy cow! That just might Make it work to its fullest capabilities batman........I guess that went above your head didn’t it?
Seems you one of those guys who likes says a lot of nothing? No offence. Just have a look at your comment for starters.
So how much testing have you done to back up your, well, back up your hot air basically. You haven’t said anything of note have you?
Do you even own a hifI? Have you ever changed part of that hifi ? I’ll beat the answer is no. Yet you some how have an opinion on the subject.
I have been posting to educate people like you on what it’s like to have a decent hifi and the pitfalls of the snake oil,industry.All of which I only know too well. Where I have putting into the conversation, instead of taking out....
Don’t be that guy, you know, the one who’s neighbour pulls up in a new black Ferrari. The one who phones his mate Trevor up and tells him about the Ferrari but tells him that if it were him he wouldn’t have had it in black.....( insert annoying nasally voice).
It is a fun hobby, even up to the point where people try and shame you for spending money on a dac worth 24k. You know the ones I mean, don’t you.


This isn't the same at all.

If you under rated the stated power supply parameters to the music system it would malfunction or under perform.

Once you've sized the components inline to spec, and ensured they're stable doing so, anything more 'perfomance' wise is unlikely to the point I put it up there with unicorns..
 
I have to wonder if this guy works for the company selling this rubbish

That power has been delivered over potentially as much as hundreds of miles through multiple transformers over many circuits, then finally through your local transformer over some shared cables with your neighbouring properties, and then finally split to your drop wire. This is then fed into your generic consumer unit, looped through an RCD, looped to the MCB for that circuit and then finally run through some generic T&E in the walls of your house through potentially many other sockets and therefore connections using generic socket screw terminals. Your power cable is then finally connected through friction contact with a generic socket connected to miles and miles and hundreds of junctions along generic cable to the source at multiple different voltages and the shared lines as mentioned.

A thicker power cable from the wall outlet to the amp making a difference, pull the other one :p
Just a thicker cable no unless its better shielded. If it has something in it or along with it to stabilize the power source it will make a difference. Also the thicker cables tend to be better shielded which can make a difference from interference.

To give an example surly you have had a lightning strike miles away and heard the pops and crackles out your speakers and sub? Many of us have experienced that. Now put something to stabilize that power source between the speakers and socket and all those pops and crackles go away giving a cleaner better sound.

Some of it is snake oil but to write it all off as snake oil is wrong. The electricity can impact how the speakers sound and we can stabilize that electricity to make the sound better. Not just lightning strikes either but building with poor or old wiring can also benefit.



Just think for a minute about that power cable and how minute it is in the journey of that power as I laid out. The cable doesn’t even make it out of the immediate room
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If you think about it that distance is precisely why that last-minute distance can potentially make such a large difference. My electricity is filtered and stabilized right at the end of that long journey and it has a noticeable impact. Its not madness it makes perfect sense if you understand power.

A lot of those cables are snake oil and do nothing but it is possible to filter and stabilize electricity right before it goes into the speakers. Electrical noise will impact sound in a negative way so removing electrical noise will improve the way the system sounds.

EDIT: not only does it sound better but filtering the electricity at the end of that long journey can protect your equipment from damage. Saying that many of those snake oil cables wont protect your system but that doesn't mean it cannot be done for the same price as the snake oil cables.
 
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str!x said:
The number nerds want answers that I cant give, that should be taken up with the people who make this stuff. Maybe the number nerds should be explaning to me what their findings are, I don't know.

You know at first this annoyed me. So much so I deleted my reply and left it. I'm glad I did as I can be a bit hot headed sometimes. But not right now so it's OK, i forgive you for that passive aggressive name calling whilst simultaneously complaining about being burned down by us number nerds - you must have been having a bad day. Look, in all seriousness it was a simple question, you could have just said that you didn't know the answer - I would have respected that more.

A 5 amp fuse to an amp? Seems you have the technical knowledge of a potato chap. I mean come on, ‘with cables they either work or they don’t work’ . Past your bedtime muffin.
At least say something of worth, substantiate your findings, back up your muddled diatribe.

This is what my snake oil cable is feeding....

https://youtu.be/m4dI9AgPuLc

Well, fuses exist to protect leads and not equipment but, why would you fit a bigger fuse than necessary? It doesn't seem a good idea to fuse for 3.25kw unless your equipment is supposed to pull that. Asking for trouble. Then again, the powers that be standardized on using either a 3am fuse or a 13amp fuse so what do I know? At any rate, the point wasn't soo much about over fusing as it was about why you think an amp would have issues with a 5amp fuse. SO, why would that cause problems? I tell you what, RA sell a 5a superfuse, seems like a good excuse for an ABX?

most of the number nerds probably don’t have enough hi fi of their own to do any of this testing to ‘prove what they are saying’ .

I've dabbled in all sorts of audio. I've built crossovers, headphone amps, designed my own subwoofers, built my own power supplies etc. I think, most of 'us number nerds' as you soo endearingly like to call us, are far more 'in to' audio than you realise. More than you, I reckon ;)

But never mind all that, You're throwing a bit of a strawman there, arent you? because it's not us making claims. That was you :)
 
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A lot of those cables are snake oil and do nothing but it is possible to filter and stabilize electricity right before it goes into the speakers. Electrical noise will impact sound in a negative way so removing electrical noise will improve the way the system sounds.
It is possible to filter and smooth power of course:)...but this is not what was being argued. I believe that the guy is using merely an extremely heavily badged slightly thicker conductor than usual and possibly better shielded power cable. There is no circuitry involved here.

He is experiencing placebo. This is a genuine experience and something taken very seriously in some industries. My wife used to work for a large Pharma company operating human trials, placebo is such a huge thing that it forms the basis of industries like that.
 
It is possible to filter and smooth power of course:)...but this is not what was being argued. I believe that the guy is using merely an extremely heavily badged slightly thicker conductor than usual and possibly better shielded power cable. There is no circuitry involved here.

He is experiencing placebo. This is a genuine experience and something taken very seriously in some industries. My wife used to work for a large Pharma company operating human trials, placebo is such a huge thing that it forms the basis of industries like that.
It could well be placebo but it might not be. I have a device in my bedroom with a cheap cable. When the fan heater is turned on and off if that other device if to close it picks up the electrical noise and triggers its own speakers. That is down to a poor cable with poor shielding.

What if the other guy is in a similar situation and he has power cables next to power cables like a lot of people do in home setups. He could be getting electrical noise due to cheap cables with poor shielding. Then he puts in the extra thick cable with better shielding and suddenly the system will sound better. Perhaps not for the reasons he thinks but it could be possible it really does sound better.

Placebo is real and I do agree most of those cables are snake oil. I am just not 100% convinced he is experiencing placebo. There is a small possibility the change is real due to better shielding.

EDIT: I agree if its not extra shielded or near other power cables everything I am saying is wrong and its Placebo in this case. As I said in my other posts these cables wont clean up an already clean power source.
 
Absolutely agreed, if you are suffering from noise then the solution is to shield or move the cables. There is no chance that a power cable should cost much more than a few pounds though even for a very nice shielded one. We use heavily shielded and actually heavily heat rated C15 cables a lot in the IT industry, they are not expensive and would likely have the same result as an audio branded item :)
 
Absolutely agreed, if you are suffering from noise then the solution is to shield or move the cables. There is no chance that a power cable should cost much more than a few pounds though even for a very nice shielded one. We use heavily shielded and actually heavily heat rated C15 cables a lot in the IT industry, they are not expensive and would likely have the same result as an audio branded item :)
That reminds me when I went to Richer Sounds. Normally I really like them but I took one look at the audio cable prices and walked out. I am not paying £13.25(per metre) for copper speaker cable. While I stand by copper cable for speakers makes a massive difference. There isn't a difference between good £1.23 per meter cable and £13.25 per meter cable.
 
Out of curiosity, do you think a £500+ USB cable improves sound quality over a £5 one?

Well , that is a can of worms isnt it? After all ones are ones and zero's are zeros.... aren't they? It depends if you adding a galvanically isolated 12v power supply and separate fancy femto clock into the mix, using a fanless pc with another separate power supply, with a seperate server and all other efforts to combat the horrid sound that digital audio can offer. And when I say offer, I mean that people have gone to great lengths to change the initial sound in to something more palatable on the ears, thus creating the computer audiophile. Makes you wonder what magic they are using doing doesn't it? Changing how the electricity acts is where I would start, but that's just me I guess.
So in answer to your question, the only discernible difference a fancy USB could make is if it were made of silver or silver coated copper with better shielding along with the aforementioned electrical accoutrements. Have I tried one...... of course I have. I wouldn't dare to talk about things that I haven't tried, I mean, would you? that would be an exercise in futility wouldn't it?


This isn't the same at all.

If you under rated the stated power supply parameters to the music system it would malfunction or under perform.

Once you've sized the components inline to spec, and ensured they're stable doing so, anything more 'perfomance' wise is unlikely to the point I put it up there with unicorns..

This isn't the same at all? really? A rather off the cuff sweeping statement. It's a wonderful analogy. The extension lead is the 6mm ring main. The shower is the amp. the 10mm is the new power cord. And even to the point where the more powerful supply of water , could even be considered the extra difference in the sound. So YES it is the same. poetic in fact. So by adding a better cable to an under performing shower........yes that's right, you clean off all the snake oil and can enjoy the shower in all its glory.

Malfunction or under perform? I liked that you used the term under perform, it somehow encapsulates exactly what I have been trying to get across doesn't it? Having my Amp plugged into a generic 5 bar B&Q extension lead along with the pre amp, cd player, DAC and the TV, was at the time, probably not the best idea. But by simply plugging the amp directly into the wall socket on with an un-badged ( does making it badged make a difference?) thicker core shielded cable, it somehow magically performed to the best of its abilities.
Once you have sized the components.......... and they are stable doing so? By getting a better cable you mean? Now how on earth would one make them stable I wonder? stable as in having a constant supply ?
Maybe the Amp was working sub par all along? who woulda thunked it ? not me that's for sure!

Seeing as this thread has now turned into the proverbial snake oil pit. Could some of you explain exactly what is your beef with all of this and not just my hornets nest poking claims. Who's side are you on exactly, because from here it seems you are own side. You cannot fathom out the ludicrous prices that these guys charge and the pretentious claims that they make. with that I agree to a certain extent of course, I have never said anything different have I? Seems that you are also not on my side. Is that because you think iv'e been duped by the spiel and are some how under their spell and i'm some sort of shmuck who knows no better, the perfect sales mans dream? And therefore I deserve the same berating as they are afforded? I mean after all, if cannot substantiate my claims it must rubbish? musn't it?

I have seen lowly figures of a couple of quid to a hundred or so quid banded around. Is this base zero for you guys? Anything above is therefore snake oil and must be treated as such? Or is it that you are peeved that someone wants to spend a considerable amount more on cable or whatever before doing their due diligence? ( in my case i'm pretty sure I know am doing and I know where this snake oil actually begins and what I consider before I buy to be a better upgrade by getting more bang for my buck having walked the path for a few years). look I know its sometimes a case of being drawn in by aesthetics, form over function and all that, so be it I say. Why would you want to go through life eating average food everyday when there is a veritable smorgasbord of better offerings out there? Or is it are you all from Yorkshire? Now we know how tight they are don't we?
Is snake oil retracting from the hi fi industry? holy crap no! Just have a look at this thread. Ever wondered that maybe you are part of the problem by perpetuating it? it's just a thought.

'personally I wouldn't have had it in black ' Good for you! What colour did you end up having Malcolm?
 
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