ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

RoboCod · 24 Sep 2015 at 21:24

The government didn't fail to form policy, it must have had policy in place to carry out military action. It can't publish the policy because it will have been protectively classified. The whole point of classifying documentation is to restrict the number of people that have eyes on that information. If the information was made available, the targets would have found out and avoided prosecution.

If these people were killed in exactly the same way, but in Iraq, it would be a none story. Why? Because that happens regularly anyway!

scorza · 28 Sep 2015 at 19:02

Mark my words, if the west U-turns and plays Putin's fiddle over Assad it will be a terrible mistake. Assad must go before the Islamic State can be defeated.

FoxEye · 28 Sep 2015 at 20:12

scorza said:
Mark my words, if the west U-turns and plays Putin's fiddle over Assad it will be a terrible mistake. Assad must go before the Islamic State can be defeated.

What legal basis is there for telling a sovereign state with a democratically elected leader that he /must/ step down?

I mean, we seem to do it an awful lot (sometimes through force), but what is the legal basis for that?

And why don't we send Kim Jong Un a nice note that he must step down too? Surely if we can tell Assad to go we can use our legal power to make NK a democracy with a nice pro-western leader too?

Or does it only work against nations with virtually no military that we can bully into doing what we want?

scorza · 28 Sep 2015 at 20:21

FoxEye said:
What legal basis is there for telling a sovereign state with a democratically elected leader that he /must/ step down?

I mean, we seem to do it an awful lot (sometimes through force), but what is the legal basis for that?

And why don't we send Kim Jong Un a nice note that he must step down too? Surely if we can tell Assad to go we can use our legal power to make NK a democracy with a nice pro-western leader too?

Or does it only work against nations with virtually no military that we can bully into doing what we want?

Holding the first multi-candidate presidential election since your dad claimed power in a coup, whilst in the midst of a civil war does not make you democratically elected.

What legal basis is there for dropping barrel bombs in densely crowded civilian areas? What legal basis is there for chemical weapons attacks? You realise that the immigrants from Syria largely aren't fleeing the Islamic State - they're fleeing Assad.

Skunkworks · 28 Sep 2015 at 20:32

scorza said:
What legal basis is there for dropping barrel bombs in densely crowded civilian areas? What legal basis is there for chemical weapons attacks? You realise that the immigrants from Syria largely aren't fleeing the Islamic State - they're fleeing Assad.

Assad understands the people and culture, and what it takes to maintain order. When countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya are freed, you're basically freeing them to start butchering each other. It may not be nice to watch, but until the ME culture grows-up it needs to be contained and controlled, brutally if needed.

scorza · 28 Sep 2015 at 20:35

Skunkworks said:
Assad understands the people and culture, and what it takes to maintain order. When countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya are freed, you're basically freeing them to start butchering each other. It may not be nice to watch, but until the ME culture grows-up it needs to be contained and controlled, brutally if needed.

Well hold-on, if he knows how to maintain order then how come there's a civil war in his country?

FoxEye · 28 Sep 2015 at 20:39

scorza said:
Well hold-on, if he knows how to maintain order then how come there's a civil war in his country?

Because there are several armed groups - some armed by the West - that want to turn Syria into an islamic state?

And we've been in these countries covertly encouraging armed uprisings against leaders who weren't pro-western /enough/ for our liking, you know, for decades.

Skunkworks · 28 Sep 2015 at 20:44

scorza said:
Well hold-on, if he knows how to maintain order then how come there's a civil war in his country?

He was in the process of sorting it, but the west butted in and supported the rebels.

scorza · 28 Sep 2015 at 20:51

Skunkworks said:
He was in the process of sorting it, but the west butted in and supported the rebels.

Sorting it how? By releasing hundreds of jihadis held in Syrian prisons? By deliberately not engaging the most brutal players in the conflict (Islamic State)?

gettothechopper · 28 Sep 2015 at 21:09

FoxEye said:
Because there are several armed groups - some armed by the West - that want to turn Syria into an islamic state?

And we've been in these countries covertly encouraging armed uprisings against leaders who weren't pro-western /enough/ for our liking, you know, for decades.

it was at least 2 years of civil war before the US armed anyone

Housey · 28 Sep 2015 at 21:15

scorza said:
Mark my words, if the west U-turns and plays Putin's fiddle over Assad it will be a terrible mistake. Assad must go before the Islamic State can be defeated.

Crap. Assad can wait.

kissenger · 28 Sep 2015 at 21:40

scorza said:
Mark my words, if the west U-turns and plays Putin's fiddle over Assad it will be a terrible mistake. Assad must go before the Islamic State can be defeated.

So let's say Assad goes. How do you defeat IS then?

From where I'm standing Assad is the lesser of two evils.

shadow_boxer · 28 Sep 2015 at 22:14

Negotiating with Assad is going to be key. Without him and his regime ISIS would control even larger areas in the region. The Russians and Iranians need to come to the table to convince him to accept support to take on ISIS, who that might be from, and convince the US to arm him. In an ideal world he'd then step down but I don't see that happening in the near future, why would he after he's fought to get his county back.

RoboCod · 28 Sep 2015 at 22:23

shadow_boxer said:
Negotiating with Assad is going to be key. Without him and his regime ISIS would control even larger areas in the region.The Russians and Iranians need to come to the table to convince him to accept support to take on ISIS, who that might be from, and convince the US to arm him. In an ideal world he'd then step down but I don't see that happening in the near future, why would he after he's fought to get his county back.

He has Russian aircraft based at his airfields. How much more can he show acceptance of support?

I don't think negotiation with Assad is key, he's a small player in the whole matter. Negotiation with Russia on the other hand, would be massive.

scorza · 29 Sep 2015 at 08:32

kissenger said:
So let's say Assad goes. How do you defeat IS then?

From where I'm standing Assad is the lesser of two evils.

Well considering that Assad's troops aren't actually fighting Islamic State, how do we defeat IS now? Remember that Assad pulled his troops out of Palmyra before IS got there, they took the city without a shot being fired. Why? Because he knew that more Islamic State outrages against important archaeological sites help to portray him as the lesser of two evils.

kissenger · 29 Sep 2015 at 08:46

scorza said:
Well considering that Assad's troops aren't actually fighting Islamic State, how do we defeat IS now? Remember that Assad pulled his troops out of Palmyra before IS got there, they took the city without a shot being fired. Why? Because he knew that more Islamic State outrages against important archaeological sites help to portray him as the lesser of two evils.

Which he is. Jeopardising ancient archaeological sites is nothing compared to what IS have done.

Assad is the only other major force in the country. If he leaves there will be nothing to stop IS overrunning the rest of Syria so I don't see how him going will help defeat IS.

Amnesia · 29 Sep 2015 at 08:59

Its almost as if the Iraq invasion never happened.

scorza · 29 Sep 2015 at 11:45

kissenger said:
Which he is. Jeopardising ancient archaeological sites is nothing compared to what IS have done.

Assad is the only other major force in the country. If he leaves there will be nothing to stop IS overrunning the rest of Syria so I don't see how him going will help defeat IS.

Which he isn't - Assads forces have killed more civilians in Syria than the Islamic State have. Assad going doesn't mean that the regime will disappear overnight, his people, the Alawites (sp?) are in the west of the country and they aren't Sunnis so will have to resist Islamic State.

jl10000 · 29 Sep 2015 at 11:46

scorza said:
Well considering that Assad's troops aren't actually fighting Islamic State, how do we defeat IS now? Remember that Assad pulled his troops out of Palmyra before IS got there, they took the city without a shot being fired.

The Syrian army cannot fight an unconventional war across all of the country on two fronts. Perhaps Palmyra is not very important strategically? As for not fighting, did ISIS run out of petrol for their pickup trucks on the way to Damascus?

I think you need a tinfoil hat to go with your new theory, you can wear it when banging your war drum.

scorza · 29 Sep 2015 at 12:14

jl10000 said:
The Syrian army cannot fight an unconventional war across all of the country on two fronts. Perhaps Palmyra is not very important strategically? As for not fighting, did ISIS run out of petrol for their pickup trucks on the way to Damascus?

I think you need a tinfoil hat to go with your new theory, you can wear it when banging your war drum.

There's just one front in Syria, it's just that there's different enemies at various places along that front. It's seems like a pretty conventional civil war to me, it's a fight for who controls land.

Dunno about Islamic State running out of fuel, last I heard they were already fighting in the suburbs of Damascus though.

FYI I'm in favour of staying completely out of Syria. It's up to the local people to either defeat the Islamic State or live in it.