Caporegime
ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.
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Soldato
) beans for you. Bargain price of £350 each
Soldato
Don't know what make of some reports but I have yet to be convinced as to the party responsible for the attack. The question of motive is blindingly clear in that it benefits one party in this war immeasurably and it disadvantages the other immeasurably.
I still don't support the Western stance. Smacks too much of a dodgy dossier feeding frenzy
I still don't support the Western stance. Smacks too much of a dodgy dossier feeding frenzy
Soldato
This isn't just a casual one off strike on a city though, this has been going on for about 6 weeks with around 1400 dead. Assad has found this last bit the hardest to flush out, unsurprisingly, one chemical attack, and they've been flushed out, the city is Assad's now.
People claiming, why would Assad do this? well, it'll be worth it if there is no response.
Soldato
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The guy is relatively well educated, certainly moreso than most, he's not a buffoon, why on earth would he trade off his life (quite potentially), with that of a few hundred of his soldiers and a few more weeks (not to mention the backing of Russia) to flush out some rebels? It's absurd.
As far as independent inspectors are concerned all chemical weapons stocks acknowledged as being under state control were destroyed some time ago, and it has confirmed on a number of occasions that chemical weapons have been used by 'rebels'. From reading it seems that the Syrian regime has been relatively compliant with the OPCW, it missed some time-specific targets along the way but the country has been turned in to a proxy war extension of the cold war, giving Russia and the West plenty of opportunity to test each others ability to project power without requiring outright war, it's understandable that infrastructure or assets may have been unavailable to meet the deadlines precisely when specified (but they have since been met).
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Timeline-of-Syrian-Chemical-Weapons-Activity
our governments are not above lying to us to further their own objectives, what ever they may be:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
Soldato
I was going to reply to Trusty however the somewhat erudite response of Vincent speaks what I needed saying.
The OPCW have now apparently been told to go where they wish.
I was also thinking of Sven256 and his postings. He posted some pretty good stuff on the situation there. Govt controlled vs Terrorist held. Stark differences indeed.
The OPCW have now apparently been told to go where they wish.
I was also thinking of Sven256 and his postings. He posted some pretty good stuff on the situation there. Govt controlled vs Terrorist held. Stark differences indeed.
Since the likelihood of that happening is remote, I've not really given it much thought to care.
Why do men in power do anything that they do? More so, why do dictators in particular? And why do they cling on like they do? Power and greed, like any other is why. That and ego.
The way some people seem to paint these leaders as saints is beyond me. Trump is almost always described as a tyrannical monster though...
Soldato
No, I realise that our governments aren't 100% altruistic, but I certainly take our government over Syria and Russia, Eastern Ghouta was a stronghold for the rebels, they had tunnels everywhere. What makes you think they would have taken it within a few weeks?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...islamists-latest-tunnels-russia-a8287116.html
1500 civilians dead even. Sure, lets believe Syria and what they have to say on the matter, they are obviously a bastion of morality.
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The reality of war has been fully exposed in Syria, surprising that Europeans need reminding. This is the war the 'rebels' wanted and they have been well supported, tough.
Soldato
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Because they can? Assad can't though, He's got the eyes of the world on him and inspectors crawling all over his country. He's fighting a war against the proxy army of the West. It was an attempted coup and nothing more, The west sought to militarise disenfranchised Syrians in an attempt to other throw Assad and gain control of the region and it's failed. It's no different to ISIS militarising disenfranchised English people in an attempt to further their ideology.
I don't think he's a saint, I just question the narrative. We seem happy to prop up these crooked leaders when it benefits us. Saddam was one and Gaddafi was another. We only seek to remove them once they attempt to come out from under our control, there's absolutely no humanitarian motivation, absolutely none.
Soldato
It was hardly a coup, defectors from the Syrian Army rose up because innocent boys were tortured and murdered for mere graffiti. It wasn't pre planned, Syria was lovely country for a while before Assad went all tyrannical, remember his father has history as well.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/14/dictator-son-assad-grip-power
I mean, the whole thing is pretty complex, but you get the sense from some people in this thread, that our governments are as bad as some of these tyrants. It's a bit embarrassing.
Soldato
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I used 'within a few weeks' to mean an undefined but likely short space of time, I don't think that's unreasonable.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...islamists-latest-tunnels-russia-a8287116.html
civilians die in war. It's extremely unfortunate. Conservative estimates suggest 130,000 civilians were killed in Hiroshima and Nagisaki. 35000-135000 killed in Dresden, 2 million civilians in vietnam, 2.7 million deaths in the Korean war, .5 million Iraqis dead as a result of the Iraq war. The West leaves a trail of the dead behind them. War is horrific. This war would have been over far sooner had we not armed radical jihadis, the same Jihadis blowing up bombs in subways and driving trucks in to people who we condemn in our own country.
Soldato
I'm not sure you can bring Hiroshima and stuff up. If we do that, then the whole thing is sort of pointless, every country has history, it's not relevant to now though I don't think. There's a lot of different groups within Syria, to say the uprising was full of ISIS is incorrect, different factions and what not. Not all who oppose Assad are radical islamists, they just didn't like seeing Assad kill demonstrators in the street.
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Soldato
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coup
kuː/
noun
- 1.
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
"he was overthrown in an army coup"
synonyms: seizure of power, overthrow, takeover, ousting, deposition, regime change;
But you bring up actions of Assad's dad as partial justifcation for the attempted unseating of Assad?
I absolutely can, people in glass house should not cast stones. We have a horrific past even in living memory, If we want to cast these stones we need to be able to do it from the moral high ground after actual, independently verified proof, or we're just joining a massive ****ing contest where everyone gets covered.
Soldato
A coup for me is something more premeditated. The dictionary says otherwise, I'm not going to argue with it, fair enough.
Israel is a different topic though? I don't see Israel rising up to overthrow the government, they obviously look after their own. Assad doesn't, he tortures and kills children.
Remote but not impossible, Indulge us, how many lives in Syria are worth you and your family being incinerated in a war with Russia? What is the threshold? All of them for me I'm afraid, not our problem. If you cannot handle that then perhaps you need to leave the thread.
Soldato
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https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...-against-netanyahu-gov-t-corruption-1.5630011
https://electronicintifada.net/blog...e-are-palestinian-children-israel-killed-2017
I'm not in favour of Palestinian interests at all, The actions of Hezbollah are terrible and I'm generally against the furthering of radical Islam and sharia law but Isreal acts despicably and we tolerate it because they are our ally, the same goes for the likes of Saudi Arabia.
We tolerated it too from the likes of Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan all the while they did as we told them when it came to supply of resources.
Unfortunately I require a higher burden of proof than I might otherwise have done from our leaders because of institutional lies of the past in my own, relatively short, lifetime. They have zero goodwill with a significant proportion of the population.
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Soldato
Corruption is everywhere unfortunately, but it's not at all in the same category as murder.
I get that about needing proof, but the evidence is mounting up against the guy, are you saying you'll change your mind if Assad has been proven guilty of using chemical weapons?
Take Libya & Afghanistan there, why are these countries not stable?
Corruption is everywhere unfortunately, but it's not at all in the same category as murder.
You see no link between the two?
Soldato
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Corruption is everywhere unfortunately, but it's not at all in the same category as murder.
Read the links?
I'm not inflexible, I just have a requirement for tangible proof rather than a simple consensus. Consensus lacks objectivity and is typically terribly subjective and knee jerk, it has got us in to more trouble than it has got us out of.
Things like Macron claiming he has proof only for it to turn out to be unverified does not help the situation. Trumps ridiculous tweets and May's refusal to consult parliament are not helping matters either, nor are they helping to promote the idea that they actually have any evidence other than that one of the numerous groups with access to chemical weapons in Syria may have used them but we can't really prove anything because pictures showing dead civilians with foaming mouths magically include children that show up in other pictures with the same cloths on in different positions in different locations. There are far, far too many unknowns and our covert actions to destabilise the country have not helped when it comes to knowing just who has what.
Because we did not go in to those countries with the objective of stabilising them.
edit: not strictly true with regard to Afghanistan but the fact that a majority of their population distrust or outright hate us because of our actions in their country and elsewhere hasn't exactly helped out cause.