ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

I'm not inflexible, I just have a requirement for tangible proof rather than a simple consensus. Consensus lacks objectivity and is typically terribly subjective and knee jerk, it has got us in to more trouble than it has got us out of.

Things like Macron claiming he has proof only for it to turn out to be unverified does not help the situation. Trumps ridiculous tweets and May's refusal to consult parliament are not helping matters either, nor are they helping to promote the idea that they actually have any evidence other than that one of the numerous groups with access to chemical weapons in Syria may have used them but we can't really prove anything because pictures showing dead civilians with foaming mouths magically include children that show up in other pictures with the same cloths on in different positions in different locations. There are far, far too many unknowns and our covert actions to destabilise the country have not helped when it comes to knowing just who has what.

1400 dead in the last few weeks by the Syrian government.

Surely you can see there is a vast difference? Still, Israel is not killing its own children with chemical weapons, basically torture, I'm not forgiving what Israel is doing, but there is a massive massive difference. That can't be your defence of Assad, surely?

Because we did not go in to those countries with the objective of stabilising them.

edit: not strictly true with regard to Afghanistan but the fact that a majority of their population distrust or outright hate us because of our actions in their country and elsewhere hasn't exactly helped out cause.

We're not involved in these countries, why aren't they stable? This idea that we're the sole reason that some of these countries are a mess doesn't wash with me.
Here's a good thought experiment - what would someone like Dick Cheney want from some of these countries? If he could wave a magic wand and make Afghanistan the country he desires, what would it look like?

..it would be a Starbucks on every corner, a booming economy, a great tourism industry etc etc, a mini America basically, that's what he would want.
 
Are people like vincent still seriously trying to argue that America or the un or some world police is seriously going to ride in invade Syria and depose Assad because of this chemical attack As a reason for it all being a massive hoax akin to 9/11 conspiracy theories?


Seriously?

Because in case you haven't noticed there are Russian "advisors" in every major Syrian base now. America may utter some harsh words, sell some weapons and donate some cash like they did in Afghanistan but they are not about to declare war and kill Russian soldiers in open combat.

Assad will face no repercussions that match the loss of this war. If he loses he dies. He will do anything to win and more importantly he can do anything because no one is going to stop him.
 
As far as independent inspectors are concerned all chemical weapons stocks acknowledged as being under state control were destroyed some time ago,

Chlorine of course not being a chemical weapon hasn't been inspected or destroyed at all. Such a task would be impossible given its ubiquitous nature in industry.
 
The guy is relatively well educated, certainly moreso than most, he's not a buffoon, why on earth would he trade off his life (quite potentially), with that of a few hundred of his soldiers and a few more weeks (not to mention the backing of Russia) to flush out some rebels? It's absurd.

Assad doesn't care as much about the eyes of the world as some think - especially not when as things stand Russia has his back.

I'm not saying Syria or Russia did carry out a chemical warfare attack but people talk about his enemy being defeated and victory at hand as if that means he didn't - but not looking at (or interested in) all the factors - Turkey appear to be pushing on Homs as well as opening a front to the East with no clear objective at this time (things are far from over if Turkey decide to reignite regime opposition in that region - at the very least they are probably trying to link up with the pocket around Talbiseh), Israel are getting more involved, Iran are under significant pressure at home to draw down and reduce the cost in money and lives operating in Syria which would be a significant factor for Assad. After 7 odd years of war his armed forces and resources aren't in a position he can throw them around with reckless abandonment - hence more temptation to preserve them and take shortcuts. Then there is always the possibility that Russia takes a more hands off approach for various reasons (there isn't as much support at home for it as there used to be) which would also leave Assad more exposed despite being on the front foot as things stand.
 
1400 dead in the last few weeks by the Syrian government.

Surely you can see there is a vast difference? Still, Israel is not killing its own children with chemical weapons, basically torture, I'm not forgiving what Israel is doing, but there is a massive massive difference. That can't be your defence of Assad, surely?

Oh, they're not murdering their own children? That's fine then. :rolleyes:



We're not involved in these countries, why aren't they stable? This idea that we're the sole reason that some of these countries are a mess doesn't wash with me.

In the case of Libya it's unstable because Gaddafi made the mistake of crossing the interests of the west and threatening American geopolitical and financial control and so we removed him. A few short years before our politicians were cosying up to him for photos.


Here's a good thought experiment - what would someone like Dick Cheney want from some of these countries? If he could wave a magic wand and make Afghanistan the country he desires, what would it look like?

..it would be a Starbucks on every corner, a booming economy, a great tourism industry etc etc, a mini America basically, that's what he would want.

He wants an oil pipeline and the preservation of the petrodollar. Something that is rapidly being undone by the likes of these middle eastern leaders like Gaddafi, Saddam et al who wanted oil backed by gold. Or nationalised in the interests of their own people (or their own greedy interests whatever). And now Russia and China are putting relentless pressure on America by reducing their holding of American dollars. I don't know what the answer is to an economic shift from America and her allies to Russia/China and their allies but that's all these proxy wars are about. They have absolutely nothing to do with morality because these people are hideous people and have been doing what they have been doing for years with the blessing of the West.

I don't agree with what these corrupt people do but I also understand that our own governments are also corrupt, and the world is not black and white, there aren't any de facto 'good guys' and if there were we certainly aren't it. We're just de jure 'good guys' all the while people buy the narrative.
 
Are people like vincent still seriously trying to argue that America or the un or some world police is seriously going to ride in invade Syria and depose Assad because of this chemical attack As a reason for it all being a massive hoax akin to 9/11 conspiracy theories?


Seriously?

Because in case you haven't noticed there are Russian "advisors" in every major Syrian base now. America may utter some harsh words, sell some weapons and donate some cash like they did in Afghanistan but they are not about to declare war and kill Russian soldiers in open combat.

Assad will face no repercussions that match the loss of this war. If he loses he dies. He will do anything to win and more importantly he can do anything because no one is going to stop him.

The Russians were invited by Assad to help keep his country and the vast majority of his people secure and safe from rebels including radical islamists who have been supplied and prompt up by the arms of the west, prolonging what would otherwise have been a short put down of a disparate uprising. It would be akin to Russia arming those people protesting Mark Duggans killing. It would have made a very containable situation incredibly messy. As our involvement has here.

Are people like you still following the narrative of our leaders unquestioningly when they have demonstrably mislead and outright lied in order to promulgate their control over resources? How does that saying go? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me?

Theresa wants to use my tax to bomb Syria because they claim Syria has used chemical weapons? Show me the evidence and tell me what you intend to achieve. Then we can talk. Until then I do not support it.

Chlorine of course not being a chemical weapon hasn't been inspected or destroyed at all. Such a task would be impossible given its ubiquitous nature in industry.
And of course in a civil war where land and resources have traded hands on a number of occasions we know with assurance that Assad is the only person with any access whatsoever to chlorine gas stocks, we also know that Assad is the only person with anything to gain by their use.

No, we know that it's a war torn country where just about everyone now seems to have access to these weapons, we know from independent investigators that chlorine has demonstrably been used by rebels and what's more the rebels are the ones who stand to gain by prolonging the war and bringing in additional combatants.

We also know that Syria has complied with the OCPW and allowed them full access, contrary to what you might expect form a rogue state like, say, North Korea, much like Saddam did prior to the Iraq war. And as was proven about the Iraq war our leaders were itching to get involved, it was planned for years and they were just waiting for the justification to go in, even if it meant relying on very spurious and suspicious sources while independent investigators were confirming Saddam's story.
 
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I don't think he's a saint, I just question the narrative. We seem happy to prop up these crooked leaders when it benefits us. Saddam was one and Gaddafi was another. We only seek to remove them once they attempt to come out from under our control, there's absolutely no humanitarian motivation, absolutely none.

Just to confirm, do you think the west instigated the whole ordeal? Did they gather all the people who oppose Assad and tell them "go and let him have it boys!"...? If so, how on earth?

The west jumped on an opportunity when they saw one, but they're not some omnipresent power that orchestrates the world like the CT brigade believe.

Tell me though, should the West not have intervened with ISIS? should they have been left, with impunity, hacking the heads off of British aid workers and journalists?

I don't think he's a saint, I just question the narrative. We seem happy to prop up these crooked leaders when it benefits us. Saddam was one and Gaddafi was another. We only seek to remove them once they attempt to come out from under our control, there's absolutely no humanitarian motivation, absolutely none.

You're applying mortality with naive romanticism to what is by its nature, a dirty and selfish world of political power play. Again, the hippy utopia isn't viable.

This idea that we're the sole reason that some of these countries are a mess doesn't wash with me.
Ding ding! Thread revisits, for probably the 100th time, the fact that the ME was messed up long before the West ever involved itself there. Try convincing the self-depricating otherwise though.

Remote but not impossible, Indulge us, how many lives in Syria are worth you and your family being incinerated in a war with Russia? What is the threshold? All of them for me I'm afraid, not our problem. If you cannot handle that then perhaps you need to leave the thread.

Bless. You had so many characters to work with and that's all you managed to come up with :(
 
The Russians were invited by Assad to help keep his country and the vast majority of his people secure and safe from rebels including radical islamists who have been supplied and prompt up by the arms of the west, prolonging what would otherwise have been a short put down of a disparate uprising. It would be akin to Russia arming those people protesting Mark Duggans killing. It would have made a very containable situation incredibly messy. As our involvement has here.


We also know that Syria has complied with the OCPW and allowed them full access, contrary to what you might expect form a rogue state like, say, North Korea, much like Saddam did prior to the Iraq war. And as was proven about the Iraq war our leaders were itching to get involved, it was planned for years and they were just waiting for the justification to go in, even if it meant relying on very spurious and suspicious sources while independent investigators were confirming Saddam's story.

Saddam was trying to equip himself with a nuclear weapon, its a shame our media never reported on it at the time, simple google "the bomb in my garden"

Assad used them just last year did he not? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_Shaykhun_chemical_attack

It was an attempted coup and nothing more, The west sought to militarise disenfranchised Syrians in an attempt to other throw Assad and gain control of the region and it's failed. It's no different to ISIS militarising disenfranchised English people in an attempt to further their ideology.
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If we had a leader like Saddam or Assad I would be praying for some kind of intervention from other states. But we dont, so these crappy analogies people keep making here are non sense.

You kind of people also seem to think its Assad or jihadis, believe it or not there is real democratic opposition, just look at the YPG and what theyve done in the north of syria.
 
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It doesn't actually make sense why Assad would use them as the civil war is nearing its end and his regime is on the verge of winning.

Chlorine in particular wouldn't be hard to make for any faction, and that was what was found in blood samples and urine of some of the victims.

Edit - I'm no conspiracy theorist either. I believe Assad did use them in 2013.
 
Chlorine of course not being a chemical weapon hasn't been inspected or destroyed at all.
Chlorine isn't a chemical weapon when sitting in a 5L bottle in the storeroom of a swimming pool. When it's located inside a missile/bomb it is and should be inspected/destroyed like any other chemical weapon.
 
It doesn't actually make sense why Assad would use them as the civil war is nearing its end and his regime is on the verge of winning.
It makes no sense why he would start using chemical weapons now, but that's the trick, he hasn't started now, he never stopped. They have been using chlorine based weapons for over a year, the only reason the western media/governments actually cared this time is because it was originally misreported as a Sarin attack.
 
Why would he use them? After years of conflict I should imagine those left will know that when the helicopters are heard you go underground. Civilian or rebel the barrel bombs don't really care.

Drop a load of this stuff, let it saturate the area and descend into those hiding holes and you flush out or kill everyone hiding. Totally effective, totally indiscriminate (even a barrel bomb can be roughly targeted) totally illegal. You ask why they'd use them? Assad now holds the city.
 
hahah Galloway, really? You do know he visited both Iraq and Syria and praised both dictators right? I guess you didnt know, otherwise you wouldn't have been so silly as to post a Galloway video in a thread about Syria.


Oh boy, why is wrong for weirdo left wing "stupids" to praise them, but when our own leaders do it, its fine? What is up with this ****** cognitive dissonance and willful ignorance. (I don't care or like Galloway, regardless, but this is stretching reality too much)

lmyOScS.jpg
BRWCU1I.jpg (hint: its Assads Father)

We put them there, and we aren't being honest about why "we" want them dead, it's not that difficult, just to admit all of these policy faux pas, it'd instantly at least make me feel less bored of the situation.

Instead we shall continue to do the same **** over and over, until such mistakes are wiped away, only to realise more mistakes were made in the process (Increased tribal warfare, and much expanded Shia and Sunni conflict, vastly increased domestic terrorism - thanks btw i like that part...)
 
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It doesn't actually make sense why Assad would use them as the civil war is nearing its end and his regime is on the verge of winning.

Have you looked at an interactive map of events in Syria recently? :p Assad might be on the front foot and ISIS might be waning but still huge areas of the country not under his control, Turkey seems to be pushing hard on two fronts with ambiguous reasons reinforcing many of the opposition in the North West of the country, etc. amongst a load of other reasons the pressure is still massively on Assad.
 
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